BAJR leaves the IFA

[trowelfodder]

Im sorry ive been off BAJR few a few weeks but im afraid that I have to weigh in on this discuission and relay my experiences of the IFA responces to standards and the anomity of complainants.

I worked on a site which in my opinion and the opinion of the majority of diggers was being carried out well below standards. We had raised concerns at the time but were told on more than one occassion that if we did not like it to leave.

The staff deciced that this was unaceptable and after exploring a number of other avenues - followed the ifa guidelines and code of conduct to make a complaint.

We were all local diggers and wanted our anonimity protected but were told that the complaint would only go ahead if we were prepared to put our names to it. We did but we signed them on a separate sheet to the complaint as a cover letter which included once more a plee that our names were not passed on.

This was photocopied and passed onto the unit, along with my home address which we were using as a point of contact leaving no doubt behind who co-ordinated this letter.

A few months later, when i was at another unit a collegue from this unit applied for a job where i was working and we were trying to get a reference for him. The unit that the allegation was made against was his first commercial job and had told him he could put them down as a reference. Hoiwever when contacted they would not give a reference by phone but instead insisted they email the director. The reply (along with a privacy clause) stated that they would not give a reference and that he had been involved in a coimplaint against the company - basically branding him a trouble maker.

Now if this is a fair and decent way of doing things then somethings sure as hell gone wrong somewhere!!!

And as for the statement that non ifa members have no right to make complaints against raos as we're not prepared adhere to their standards - i dont even know where to begin!! Its hardly an impoartial view for someone on the council to hold. I would sign up to a code of conduct if it was enforged but to me it just seems like an expensive magazine subscription.

It was all summed up for me in the bajr conference on standars when in the open section at the end chaired by an ifa member i asked how would stands be enforced and that it was replyed was not the point of the disscussion!!

This just makes me so angry - ive had to move 200 miles to get a job after i spoke out and am branded a trouble maker but im unrepentant - just wish there were far more so i wouldnt stand out so much.

[garybrun]

I think that's disgraceful.
Now before someone says what right have I to have a say in this as a metal detectorist :-)

As an outsider... can I give an honest opinion of many within the archaeological trade.
NOTE: I AM NOT CASUING TROUBLE AND I AM GIVING CRITISIM AS WHAT AN OUTSIDER SEES.

The trouble with a lot of archaeologists I have met is that they have a "holier than though image".
They have spent years studying their craft and don't want some little whipper snapper discovering what they have been trained to discover. That the person is not a good speller or doesn't speak the Queens English good enough is a major cause of concern.
There is such a snobbery with archaeological circles that they are blinded to what other people try to achieve and that they have as much commitment to the heritage as they do.
Believe me I know... I have fought and still fight for the average guy in the street to be able to choose how to record his heritage. To educate that person to record and how important recording our past is to understanding our heritage. No matter how much education you have does not give you the people skills to communicate your message. there are many ways of getting a message across and not just one way is the "only way"

Archaeology in the UK is a mess. Its a mess because those within it hierarchy are reluctant to change and " do not learn from the past" Archaeology in the UK need a complete image rebuild. Ask the average guy in the street what he thinks an archaeologist is and what his role is.

In fact.. I don't mind going out with my camera crew and doing a random Pole of people within the street of the UK and ask them what they think about archaeologists and archaeology. Would you accept those results and look at them. Would you take the criticisms on board and work on them. Or would you dismiss them as being biased and not a true picture.

David.
If I can have your permission I would do this and add the finished product to you media site.. with no editing just.. straight from the peoples mouths.

If you want to be taken seriously ( I know you think you are all very serious within your own ranks) you need to have a chartered status. You also need to realize that the public (when public money is used) want to know were that money is going and to what benefit it is to them.
You can call me all the names under the sun... but the ?100,000 spent on a night hawking survey with very little reponses was a utter complete waste of time. What could some of you have done with that money for restoring or archiving your finds. Some one please tell me what came out of it and the one that was done quite a few years before... I think I posted the results on it here quite a while ago.
Many have taken the view of making a money at the expense of the heritage. How many have done things not to annoy their developers and to secure other contracts.

Some of you will jump down my neck with this post. Don't worry I'm used it.
As trowelfodder thinks hes being branded a trouble make within archaeology.. I understand were hes coming from. the only army that turns on its wounded men.

I'm also branded in the same way but on different terms.

Ive been visiting this forum everyday for quite a few years... please go back and take a look at my posts.
How many have been "anti archaeology or recording"? How many have been about trying to understand the way archaeologists thinks and try and spread positive information about my hobby and educating people on the "benefits" of recording only to branded a trouble maker.

Well as one who always speaks his mind... that's why I would never make a politician.
When we sit on the toilet we all crap the same way... some might not like that image or thought but its true.
Down to earth and plain speaking... because to ruffle a few feathers sometimes is the only way to get people to sit up and take notice.





Website for responsible Metal Detecting
http://www.ukdfd.co.uk
Recording Our Heritage For Future Generations.

[trowelfodder]

Trowelfodders a girl [:I]

[garybrun]

I mist of the "s"



Website for responsible Metal Detecting
http://www.ukdfd.co.uk
Recording Our Heritage For Future Generations.

[oldgirl]

Just to make it clear, I'm not a member of council. I was quite a few years ago, but not now.

[1man1desk]

Posted by Trowelfodder:

quote:We were all local diggers and wanted our anonimity protected but were told that the complaint would only go ahead if we were prepared to put our names to it. We did but we signed them on a separate sheet to the complaint as a cover letter which included once more a plee that our names were not passed on.

This was photocopied and passed onto the unit, along with my home address which we were using as a point of contact leaving no doubt behind who co-ordinated this letter.

I am quite shocked by that - the IFA does have a mechanism in place to protect anonymity (i.e. an IFA staffer would take up the complaint in place of the originator), and I don't know why it didn't work here. One possibility is that the nature of the compaint was such that it could only be upheld using the original complainants as witnesses, so if they weren't identified it couldn't go forward.

I have made a complaint myself, successfully using the anonymity rule, but it was one based on information that the company concerned had published on the internet - so it did not depend on my personal evidence.

quote:And as for the statement that non ifa members have no right to make complaints against raos as we're not prepared adhere to their standards

And any such statement is not true. Non-IFA members can make complaints. However, no-one can take disciplinary action against a non-IFA member or non-RAO organisation for failure to follow IFA standards, because only members and RAOs are bound to the standards through their membership.
If you want to complain about the conduct of a non-RAO, to whom would you direct your complaint? and what action could they take?

1man1desk

to let, fully furnished

[BAJR Host]

Indeed... who to call?

Curator for one ...

And indeed non-IFA members can indeed bring complaints against IFA members.. down side is, that they don't have to answer in return.. no matter how malicious the complaint. Hummmm quandry time...

The case mentioned above is known to me... and shocked me too. I even offered to vouchsafe the names and hold them in trust. (my word is my bond and all that) as the potential for the named people to have black marks against them was great. Even if a complaint was one that was a misunderstanding - that could be resolved, the names would still be viewed as 'troublemakers'.

I can't comment on the particular case.. but do feel the procedures must be looked at .. given the potential long term affects it can have on either the complainant and the accused.



:face-huh:

"No job worth doing was ever done on time or under budget.."
Khufu

[Oxbeast]

1man1desk, what was the outcome of the disciplinary case that you were involved in, and were you satisfied with it?

I see on the IFA's website that anomynity is entirely discretionary.

I see what you mean about cases relying on personal evidence. However, in cases where sites are being knackered/machined out perhaps the onus should not be on the complainant to wait for the company to bring out a report that glosses over any inconsistencies.

[Sparky]

I think Trowelfodder's experience says it all.
What a farce. How is confidence supposed to be held with a body that investigates complaints in order to uphold its own standards while crapping on the people that are willing to highlight cases of RAOs not sticking to standards.
My hat goes off to you, Trowelfodder.
I have absolutely no confidence in the IFA due to this behaviour.
Out of interest, there's not been much talk of this year's IFA conference on BAJR. I attended and wasn't wholey impressed with the usual hegemonic suspects and their papers.
S

[BAJR Host]

I should point out that the IFA procedures are available.. and perhaps if people have specific concerns, or suggestions about how better it can be done... they contact them.. it would be a useful exercise...

after all, there have to be rules, but I would guess... knowing the rules and understanding them, would be a good starting point.

I feel there is a need to have confidence in a system, that after all should not be seen as a punishment.. but a system to ensure best practice, and to help maintain it. We all do things that fly close to the edge ( sometimes ) and it would be useful to be able to steer back beforehand, as a positive guide rather than have to wait until it goes 'all the way'.

I do worry at words like discretionary... they are too open to interpretation...

But as I have said before, BAJR does not want to return to a them and us .... it was counter productive.... questions though must be asked, as there does seem to be conflicting ideas and outcomes...

"No job worth doing was ever done on time or under budget.."
Khufu