Meeting a need

[mercenary]

All this pro Hungate spin ignores the fact that use of volunteers and or paying trainees on commercial projects is still considered controversial by many in the industry. Or is it anymore? The Hungate project has a long history of very acrimonious competition which produced a pretty small budget for the amount of work. Whatever the benefits to the trainees (and I am sure there are many), I would contest that such a pared to the bone piece of commercial work is not the best candidate for training the next generation of archs.

[matthew.law]

@YellowPete - Higher Education Academy Subject Centre for History, Classics and Archaeology. Not to be confused with HEACS, the Historic Environment Advisory Council for Scotland.


Matt

[mercenary]

The cheap labour accusation is probably too simplistic. Every training dig I've seen close-up has struggled to even break-even. The company certainly has the experience to make it pay if anyone could though. Maybe the budgets are different for a charitable Trust?

In the past their training digs were not commercial projects as is right and proper. Now though the Hungate project appears (from the outside) to be more training dig than commercial project, despite promises to the contrary before it began. I suspect that Hungate has been used to kill a few birds with a single stone, by pretending a training dig is the "Public Archaeology" that was a requirement for the tender, and fulfilling whatever education requirements there are to maintain charitable status.

I sincerely hope that Troll's hypothetical training company doesn't follow the same model and stays well clear of commercial projects.

[BAJR Host]

It should be pointed out that the same number of paid staff would be working on Hungate... with or without trainees etc.. indeed I think I may be right in saying that there are more paid staff...to cope with the volunteers.. it also opens arcaheology to be both inclusive and worthwhile to the public / student who can gain both skills and archaeological skills..

I agree however that the ...

use of volunteer and trainee workers as the primary workforce on a competetively tendered commercial project is flat out wrong.

Where this is in place of a paid and skilled workforce.

Constant development is the law of life, and a man who always tries to maintain his dogmas in order to appear consistent drives himself into a false position.
Mohandas Gandhi

[Reggie]

quote:Originally posted by mercenary

Now though the Hungate project appears (from the outside) to be more training dig than commercial project, despite promises to the contrary before it began. I suspect that Hungate has been used to kill a few birds with a single stone, by pretending a training dig is the "Public Archaeology" that was a requirement for the tender, and fulfilling whatever education requirements there are to maintain charitable status.

The public access programme at Hungate is actually quite extensive and must surely go quite a way beyond the basic requirements for the tender. Extra resources eg. staff, funding, etc, (in addition to what is required to carry out the commercial contract) have enabled the Trust to offer an enhanced public access programme.

The training dig is one aspect of the public access but there are many more. No paid staff on the commercial project have been replaced by trainees and/or volunteers. Trainees and volunteers work slower than the commercial team and require additional and often very intensive supervision, so a full commercial team is still required to get the job done on time and to budget.

The Hungate Outreach programme offers a very successful and wide range of public access archaeology via a community archaeology project, a Youth Offending project, guided public tours, free open days, educational workshops (on and off site) for schools, colleges, community centres, etc, talks/lectures to the heritage and non-heritage sectors, etc, joint projects with academic partners, regional business partners, etc.

There has been plenty of publicity about public stuff going on at Hungate, particularly in the local and regional press, as well as national media (TV and press).....

[BAJR Host]

Thanks reggie - this confirms what I already felt was the case.

Constant development is the law of life, and a man who always tries to maintain his dogmas in order to appear consistent drives himself into a false position.
Mohandas Gandhi

[mercenary]

All of this may be true, but I feel very strongly that a commercial project, especially one that was aggressively fought for, is not the right project for a training excavation. Students need training in commercial techniques, by commercial archaeologists, but not on commercial sites.

[BAJR Host]

Its where I learned... and so did many of us

However.. the question is this... hotly contested it may have been, BUT... it seems (and yes I have physically been there - and yes I am an ex-YAT digger) that they are able to do the commercial job AND add extra.

I have to say that this is the point... not an either/or but an ADDED extra. I often bang on about the real need for students to learn on real sites... I often bang on about the public being allowed to get behind the herris fence to get involved or watch close up... well... here it is! integrating commercial with training, with education, with public. Lets remember that commercial archaeology started too much to stare at its own navel , so when the push came to shove we were without a lot of support... as we had kept the public at arms legths with a pompous, we are professionals attitude... think on!

YAT has been little affected by the credit crunch? I wonder why? YAT does not expand beyond its borders too much..? YAT.. strangely works mainly in... you guesssed it... York...

The staff there now... I remmber from my time there in the 80s and 90s... now... I wonder why that is?

I support this one..120% and hope others follow this model, rather than look at the commercial bottom line?

Constant development is the law of life, and a man who always tries to maintain his dogmas in order to appear consistent drives himself into a false position.
Mohandas Gandhi

[kevin wooldridge]

I have only heard good things about Hungate (from archaeologists who have visited the project and whose opinions I trust).

....Mind you I admit to being biased cos if I had my way all archaeological projects (commercial or research) would need to demonstrate that they provide both training and community involvement. I am not convinced that there are any projects that can't fulfill both of these aims.....and would be happy to expand this discussion if anyone thinks there are archaeological projects that can be excepted....

With peace and consolation hath dismist, And calm of mind all passion spent...

[BAJR Host]

Constant development is the law of life, and a man who always tries to maintain his dogmas in order to appear consistent drives himself into a false position.
Mohandas Gandhi