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Has the Troll really gone?
I think BAJR without the contributions made by Troll will be a sadder place. An awkward sod, but as any baker will tell you, who really wants pastry that always tastes the same.

If anyone out there is in touch with him, can you assure him of the kind wishes of at least one BAJR regular and ask him to come back to where he is needed most.

And a personal message for Troll (incase he is 'lurking'). "Don't desert us now old boy, not when they are on the run, Blair has almost gone, I can see a bright light at the end of the tunnel....."

With peace and consolation hath dismist, And calm of mind all passion spent...
Agreed. Having worked with Troll, I can say that he is one of the most knowledgable and consciencious archaeologists that I have ever met. Any comments he made in the Kition thread only reflected his despair of the destruction of valuable culture. The loss of his input on this forum is not a good sign.

Anybody who knows Troll would know that he is a cheeky sod, but a champion bloke.

It is my view that over the last few years the BAJR has changed from being a lively and spirited forum to a more mundane and repressive one. Lines have been drawn between consultants and diggers and archaeologists and detectorists. I have already cancelled my britarch subscription and I hope I do not have to do the same here.

Perhaps some people should stop taking themselves so seriously, cut the whining, and engage in some of the invaluable debate that taught me so much in earlier years.
Yeh, Id like to have Troll back too! Im not sure I feel as strong about things as Uncle Andy above. I think the deradicalisation (is that a word?) of any organisation/movement (including BAJR)is, perhaps unfortunately, the only successful way to get a voice in the mainstream of debate in society today.

As far as I see it there are two paths: either sit on the outside and maintain ones integrity, or be part of the debates that invariably descend into rhetoric, complexity and apparent ineffectivness. Im not sure I feel at all comfortable with the latter which (in my opinion) in British Archaeology seems to result in a culture of 'managa-speak' at the expense of actually finding out stuff about the past, but I still think its better to tactically prod.from the inside thatn be left in the cold.

So, Troll, please come back and do some prodding, the establishment is only what we make it.
Quote:quote:Lines have been drawn between consultants and diggers and archaeologists and detectorists.

Are the lines drawn?

I had rather hoped that we were starting to cross the lines.

It is a shame if the Troll has gone, he has put me in my place a couple of times in the past and made me think about things.

If a job is worth doing, then its worth doing it tomorrow!

Homer (Simpson)

I would definitely like to see the return of Troll as his contributions are sorely missed.

However I would disagree with Uncle Andy in his view on lines being drawn between diggers and consultants, and between archaeologists and detectorists. Much care is taken here to avoid the perceptions of 'us' and 'them' and to encourage reasonable debate.

Indeed, the sad fact of Troll's most recent departure is that is was provoked by the response to what was perceived by some as yet another of his barbed comments aimed at consultants. OK, perhaps it was only a joke, but after a while this sort of comments becomes less humerous and we consultants feel the right to defend our work within the profession. It is not about 'taking yourself too seriously', it is about unfair and unwarranted criticism thinly disguised as 'humour'.

I don't remember similar comments aimed by consultants at diggers, possibly because most consultants once were diggers and still remember what it was like. Troll's contributions to debate on here were useful and a return would be welcome, but if lines have been drawn between consultants and diggers then Troll must take a fair share of the responsibility for that.

Posted by Uncle Andy:
Quote:quote:It is my view that over the last few years the BAJR has changed from being a lively and spirited forum to a more mundane and repressive one. Lines have been drawn between consultants and diggers and archaeologists and detectorists.
Although Troll and I often find ourselves at daggers drawn, I think many of the debates on BAJR would be diminished without him, so I hope he doesn't disappear.

In relation to Uncle Andy's comments though, Troll is one of those most insistent on drawing those lines, seeing archaeology as a collection of mutually antagonistic tribes. Personally, as someone who has crossed the lines more than once in my professional career, I think they are largely imaginary, and I like to see archaeologists as a single large group within which we all play complementary roles.

His 'tribalism' is the thing that most divides me from Troll.


to let, fully furnished
Right..... thats it.... TROLLLLLLLLLLL come home......

He has made it celar that his love and respect for BAJR (the concept - not me!_) and archaeology (the reality ! not the concept!) and what he feels to be right, are often at odds with what can be posted here...

Troll is as much a part of BAJR as the coding in the page, integral ! So I will ask him to return, and as I know he reads here on occasion, while not quaffing a fine orange juice on a sun drenched island! He will know he is missed .. and I hope return to kick us in the teeth, shoot from the hip and remind us of the duty we all have for the archaeology!


"No job worth doing was ever done on time or under budget.."
apologies for posting in haste. I stand corrected on some points. Lend me a hand while I climb down off my high horse will you...

I think that we can all agree however, that the less voices heard on the forum (not just Troll), the less representative of 'real' archaeology and the inherently complex issues that come with it.

even though I am far removed from the British arch scene, I have always found the BAJR forum to be enlightening and educational. One thing I have learnt from this forum is that there is clearly no easy way for a consultant to satisfy the needs of all interested parties (ie protect heritage vs. accomodate commercial interests), and this is obviously an issue faced by heritage managers worldwide. Hence my interest. However without people like Troll (however Tribal) around to highlight failings then surely we open the door even further to unscrupulous operators?

Clearly some people have felt it as a personal attack, whereas I am sure there was none.

We love you too

but you are right! we need a representative cross section of all archaeologists and anyone else who cares about archaeology

"No job worth doing was ever done on time or under budget.."
troll is still about... so if you are doing anything wrong jsut now.... stop it... as he will have ya!!

Troll is doing what Troll must do. and we will keep in touch with him.... as I miss him as much as the rest of you..

I will keep you updated with bits and pieces...

But lets Troll speak!

"After a few years of investing time on the forum I must admit that I have become tired of becoming embroilled in pointless emotional exchanges that detract from the incredibly important points (I feel) that need to be made. I should have known better but, it seems to be the case that I am never going to make any headway by procrastinating within an industry where sadly- facts are hastily and sometimes cleverly submerged beneath layers of pseudo-legal speak where individuals are more interested in protecting their own professional reputations/emotional requirements than they are in accepting truth."

Troll is alive and well... and like me is wanting to see some real change instead of real excuses.

He also sends love to us all...

so - from me at least... love you to!

"No job worth doing was ever done on time or under budget.."

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