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Find the Pay Rate of Archaeology Jobs in the UK
#21
Free cakes... why did you not say! Though I hope they get receipts for tax purposes Wink

Seriously though.. ( and not to confuse people) my phone is always near... my door is open... and hatchets are meant to be buried
:face-topic:
I think we should move over to Version II as Betts says
http://www.bajrfed.co.uk/showthread....tes-Attempt-II
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#22
You misunderstood my last post, wasn't joining in with the BAJR/Jack sparring, was actually following Kevin's point that wages aren't the whole story, a poorer-pay enjoyable job can be a load better than an apparently well-paid one (and the fringe bits can actually make it more lucrative too in the long run - if the digs are good with satellite TV, jacuzzi etc you're less likely to spend most of your wages down the pub every night) - that sort of thing isn't going to be reflected in the type of survey being carried out here?
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#23
Ah... got you...

You are right... a wage for an employee can be made better with such items. and cake helps as well.. in fact cake shows a bit of respect. !

THre was talk about creating a league table ( ah.. I miss the Digger) where pay, free accommodation, travel costs etc were taken into consideration.

WHat would be better is if the minima was just that... the minima.. not the reality.
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#24
Dinosaur Wrote:You misunderstood my last post, wasn't joining in with the BAJR/Jack sparring, was actually following Kevin's point that wages aren't the whole story, a poorer-pay enjoyable job can be a load better than an apparently well-paid one (and the fringe bits can actually make it more lucrative too in the long run - if the digs are good with satellite TV, jacuzzi etc you're less likely to spend most of your wages down the pub every night) - that sort of thing isn't going to be reflected in the type of survey being carried out here?

Exactly my point.....I'm not sure what value there is in a map showing the location of an archaeological unit based in Borsetshire, when the work they are doing could be 600/700 kilometres away, and where the 'workers' are employed on 'local' terms and conditions entirely separated from those enjoyed by members of the core Borsetshire team....Now if this was a GIS presentation with 'stratification' of the wage data showing all of the imponderables, fringe benefits and other factors, that would make some sense (and be an eminently usable tool).

I suggest redrawing the map in QGIS and adding a few relevant attributes to the data.....
With peace and consolation hath dismist, And calm of mind all passion spent...
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#25
kevin wooldridge Wrote:Exactly my point.....I'm not sure what value there is in a map showing the location of an archaeological unit based in Borsetshire, when the work they are doing could be 600/700 kilometres away, and where the 'workers' are employed on 'local' terms and conditions entirely separated from those enjoyed by members of the core Borsetshire team....Now if this was a GIS presentation with 'stratification' of the wage data showing all of the imponderables, fringe benefits and other factors, that would make some sense (and be an eminently usable tool).

I suggest redrawing the map in QGIS and adding a few relevant attributes to the data.....

First, thank you for bringing up these concerns. I have a couple of thoughts:

1. Unfortunately, there is just no way to get data such as "imponderables, fringe benefits and other factors". So that really is not an option. Which brings me to...

2. I completely agree that choice in jobs is not as straightforward as pure money BUT that is a subjective choice and I can't cover all of the possible factors e.g. personality compatibility between employer and employee (no way I can put that into numbers or could find out that information).

I look at this as a tool to help people quickly and easily look up the one factor, pay. After that YOU ALL are on their own and any other factors in their decisions will have to be gathered in another location.

So the questions I should be asking is: Does that sound fair to everyone else - provide pay rates you do the rest? Does this one factor help or hurt and should I stop/continue?

3. GIS is not a practical tool for public distribution because:
  • not everyone can use it
  • I don't have a personal website to host a simple map view of the GIS data
4. Location of job will matter more for positions that do not travel but even for excavators and supervisors many times you will come back to a homebase between projects or on weekends(depending). So local pay does matter even if you are not working locally the majority of the time. My thoughts tell me if I am wrong on this.

PS there is a second thread with the most up to-date data but I am posting here because I did not want to clutter up that posting with debates. I would prefer just to announce updates on that one.
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#26
Hi Doug, interesting stuff, bit confused which thread to post on, but I'll put this here as it seems more relevant to several previous posts.

The difficulty of comparing like with like in terms of pay and conditions has been known for a long time, and there have been various attempts to look at the issue and quantify it including Outwage. Responses to the variations in pay and conditions have included the IfA publishing figures stating what benefits such as paid holiday, sick cover or pension are 'worth' at each minima level and by how much the minima should be upped if these benefits are not given by an employer: http://www.archaeologists.net/practices/salary

Another attempt that is ongoing is the survey by the Diggers' Forum aimed at establishing what the current practices are in commercial archaeology: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/diggersforumtravelsurvey This survey of workers and employers is primarily about away work and travel, but also gathers data on the wider package of pay and benefits and what they mean to us out on site. Using the data we are gathering we hope to not only understand what is happening out there, but also be able to establish what the real total renumeration is for a job so we can finally compare one job to another.

I would hope that employers advertising for staff would realise that the 'extras' are often the clincher as to whether that employment is viable or not, and start expressly stating the terms of their travel/away subs etc etc. Then we will have a slightly more level playing field where everyone can tell whether Job A pays better than Job B. At the moment you can be working next to a colleague on a joint venture where the basic pay is essentially the same, but one earns several thousand pounds a year more in 'extras' as well as incurring lower costs via accomodation etc than the other.

There is still time to complete the DF away-work survey, we've some very useful results so far but could always do with more responses. The survey is open to all who work on site in British commercial archaeology.

https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/diggersforumtravelsurvey

Chiz
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#27
as an arch of well over 20 yrs i find cakes demeaning. Instead a better rate of subs would be more fitting. During winter months with threat of arch lighting, better pay would go further than a lidl victoria sponge cake. a hot meal is much better than a sugar rush.
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#28
This is all admirable in theory. However if you look at comparable industries that have a work away element (asbestos, demolition, building and glazing etc) you will find that arch is abouth the same in away perks/allowances. Moreover they tend to have a higher regulation aspect when it comes to certification and H&S. A uni degree does not necessarily produce a better site operative - nor a better manager. However a arch degree generally does produce a more liberal, less shouty boss of either either gender. What modern arch needs is a clear idea of the goals of the project and the goals of the client. No more the days of Petrie and Scleiman. If the olympics can be lambasted then so can we all.

Field staff are talented. But field staff should realise that they have a role and not a right. Less tea and more tight ship.
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#29
hhhmmmm

an interesting take on things. SO what is your vision for archaeology? or do you see archaeology in development as a shouty tight H&S box ticking, hi viz helmet wearing po-faced temporal contamination engineer, we are here to do a job, not archaeology type of thingy?

The days of Archaeology as something which is enjoyable are still here... and are a damn sight more fun.

20 years in archaeology and you seem to have lost yer puff...
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#30
Who's been buying their staff cakes from Lidl! :0

You've been terribly mistreated, wouldn't happen on one of Jack's sites where I gather quality cakes are the norm (I usually go straight for the chocolates) Cool
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