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+--- Thread: Ready to froth (/showthread.php?tid=4194)
Ready to froth - Wax - 23rd November 2011
I do wonder if prehistoric cave art is really any more profound than some of the glorious graffiti tags you see around at the moment. Just cause its old and rather beautiful does not mean its any more significant than some modern street art :face-stir:
I am with Dinosaur on watching old black and white films for back ground research. If you want to see what the inside of a terraced house at the begining of the C 20th looked like check some out. The first episodes of Coronation street show interiors that are an eye opener to working class living conditions of the time even if they are sets.
Ready to froth - BAJR - 23rd November 2011
Go on there Wax!
Stir it up!
Ready to froth - RedEarth - 23rd November 2011
Wax Wrote:I do wonder if prehistoric cave art is really any more profound than some of the glorious graffiti tags you see around at the moment. Just cause its old and rather beautiful does not mean its any more significant than some modern street art :face-stir:
I'm wit Wax and Dino on this one, especially having worked on a listed building graffittied (spelling) by a well-known recent artist. In the right circumstances it absolutely could be an asset, and artistic merit is a consideration too. What seems a bit silly about this situation is that that appear, because of the 'anti-establishment' subject matter to have really gone out of their way to stir things up, and rather pointlessly (in my opinion) succeeded, thus reducing any argument about the heritage value of the site to a side show, which is a shame because I think it is arguably a perfectly valid and important discovery.
Ready to froth - kevin wooldridge - 23rd November 2011
RedEarth Wrote:I refer to my previous comment - God I hate archaeologists.
They couldn't just say, hey look we've found some grafitti left by the Sex Pistols, that's quite interesting isn't it? No they had to make comparisons to prehistoric cave paintings/to art treasures/to upsetting the establishment/sticking their tongues out. .
I have just read the Antiquity article. Not a single mention of comparison to Lascaux, not a single mention of the word 'prehistoric'.
Ready to froth - tom wilson - 24th November 2011
kevin wooldridge Wrote:I have just read the Antiquity article. Not a single mention of comparison to Lascaux, not a single mention of the word 'prehistoric'.
I am not remotely surprised. None of the journalists I have read seem to have read the article either; they are all quoting each other's misquotes. I haven't read the article yet either (because I don't have free access to Antiquity) but I look forward to it. I think there might be some very interesting (if slightly navel-gazing) issues that could be looked at with this example as a point of reference. How do we assign significance and how does that relate to prevailing mores? What is the purpose and what are the selection criteria for preservation? etc.
As for the graffiti themselves; photograph and paint them over; they're crap, they are of negligible 'significance', and I honestly can't think of anything 'less punk' than preserving them. What a terrible idea. Jonny Rotten will be spinning in his grave (now he has been reincarnated as a butter salesman).
Ready to froth - RedEarth - 24th November 2011
kevin wooldridge Wrote:I have just read the Antiquity article. Not a single mention of comparison to Lascaux, not a single mention of the word 'prehistoric'.
Excellent, thank you journalists for making a mountain out a mole hill. Should have known better than to get involved in anything that they had dirtied first!
Ready to froth - kevin wooldridge - 24th November 2011
tom wilson Wrote:I am not remotely surprised. None of the journalists I have read seem to have read the article either; they are all quoting each other's misquotes. I haven't read the article yet either (because I don't have free access to Antiquity) but I look forward to it. I think there might be some very interesting (if slightly navel-gazing) issues that could be looked at with this example as a point of reference. How do we assign significance and how does that relate to prevailing mores? What is the purpose and what are the selection criteria for preservation? etc.
As for the graffiti themselves; photograph and paint them over; they're crap, they are of negligible 'significance', and I honestly can't think of anything 'less punk' than preserving them. What a terrible idea. Jonny Rotten will be spinning in his grave (now he has been reincarnated as a butter salesman).
Tom I can send you a PDF of the article if you want. Send me your e-mail address via Facebook and the article will be with you within the hour...
Ready to froth - BAJR - 24th November 2011
http://www.york.ac.uk/archaeology/news-and-events/news/external/john-lydon/
Quote:Archaeologists typically record and analyse the traces of past human activities. The caves of Lascaux in southern France are celebrated as a place where early humans made their marks on cave walls. The cave is now protected, and an exact replica is what the public now encounter.
I will hold my hand up to the words "So could Denmark Street be Punk’s Lascaux?" because this is an opinion. Fortunately we (at Past Horizons) do not compare Lascaux directly to these images - the comparison is one for punks to decide. a place of mystery or historical mythical relevance.
The concept is one where we record the walls of Lascaux and now we record Denmark Street... is it bad? is it good? will we wish we had in 100 years time? What is contemporary archaeology? :face-thinks:
One thing it did was make people react... think and either disagree or not... but at the end of it... there as a reaction.
Ready to froth - RedEarth - 24th November 2011
BAJR Wrote:http://www.york.ac.uk/archaeology/news-and-events/news/external/john-lydon/
I will hold my hand up to the words "So could Denmark Street be Punk’s Lascaux?" because this is an opinion. Fortunately we (at Past Horizons) do not compare Lascaux directly to these images - the comparison is one for punks to decide. a place of mystery or historical mythical relevance.
The concept is one where we record the walls of Lascaux and now we record Denmark Street... is it bad? is it good? will we wish we had in 100 years time? What is contemporary archaeology? :face-thinks:
One thing it did was make people react... think and either disagree or not... but at the end of it... there as a reaction.
Hmm, so who has been responsible for turning this into Cappuccino?
If it was graffitti left by soliders in a WWII bunker would it be considered of historical significance?
If it was graffitti left by a prisoner in Belsen would it be more or less important?
What if it was prehistoric graffitti, or medieval?
Bog standard 1970s graffitti probably wouldn't be very interesting but this example certainly is, I would have thought. More important than these Beatles recordings? Is that just a Punks v Hippies argument? The only difference is that are still punks about to give an opinion (albeit probably iased), there is no-one from the Palaeolithic.
It's the over inflated notion that this is art (great or otherwise) and an important archaeological site that is causing the problems. Why couldn't they have just kept it simple as it is surely too early to make that sort of judgement?
Ready to froth - Dinosaur - 24th November 2011
RedEarth Wrote:If it was graffitti left by soliders in a WWII bunker would it be considered of historical significance?
Hope not, by coincidence its largely graffiti/artwork in some WWII airfield huts that I'm hoping to spot during my cinematic research.......