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Q: how many archaeologists does it take to ruin an industry? - moreno - 30th March 2011
Dinosaur Wrote:Think it was argued out pretty thoroughly on here last year that a degree is irrelevant to being a digger, whether you can actually do a day's grafting rather than whingeing on instead about not using your hard-learned PhD on the typology of Roman ear-picks and bringing everyone else down (or at least giving everyone a good laugh behind your back) is far more important.
A view from the trenches, one can easily say the same of consultants. Having the privilege to work with many hardworking, thoughtful, insightful and decent (people) non academic and academic archaeologists, some have even made good consultants.
Beyond the pale, “hard graft and good site workers…” and actually reads as simply all that’s required to the job is just being a good labourer and doing what your told without question.While some do realise that being able to string a sentence together and write a coherent paragraph for others not directly involved in the fieldwork to whom site records will eventually be passed onto are desirable qualities.
Yet while reading some of these posts it is very evident how some people in the role of management really feel about their colleagues, patronising is being polite and to think that someone is less important than you or that someone is not good enough to be equated in one’s esteem to be considered a work colleague. These are not qualities I would want in a manager.
Deadly, no I don’t believe it is off topic, it speaks directly to the point P.Prentice raises in the thread.
Q: how many archaeologists does it take to ruin an industry? - Dinosaur - 30th March 2011
Don't do management, just attempt to turn their grand schemes into a quality reality despite all the hurdles thrown in my path, of which wingeing workforce who can't be bothered to pass a driving test and expect to be ferried around to the shops etc in my car during my time and at my expense come pretty high up the list (top marks to the guy on the M1A1 who announced at 7.30 one evening while I was eating my tea before heading to the pub for a few well-earned beers that he had a critical medical appointment at 8pm 20 miles away...got back at midnight...tosser), closely followed by those who seem unable (despite all attempts to train them otherwise) to record stuff in an intelligeable manner to a remotely adequate standard thereby wasting even more of my time - sorry to those reading this who can do all this, but there are an awful lot of you out there who can't, even if you think you can (which is even more annoying) :face-crying:
-do I get the prize for today's longest sentence? }
Q: how many archaeologists does it take to ruin an industry? - Jack - 30th March 2011
There are a multitude of skills required in archaeology and a multitude of tasks to be performed. In some ways archaeologists are Jacks of all trades, in other ways we are extremely specialised.
But Dino is right.....universities rarely prepare you for the dirty world of digging on a site. Most aspects of most archaeological undergrad and postgrad courses are specifically designed to prepare the student for the accademic world of book research, lecturing, reading and writing articles for publication.
Most archaeology degrees do encourage students to go on a couple of training/research digs, but these usually only provide a taster of what goes on on a site and rarely prepare the student for the digging circuit.
From my experience the courses also dont prepare the student for the commercial world at all. How many students after completing their course, certificate in hand, are aware of the regional resource assessments? MAP2? Research agendas, or even what a WSI is or how to do a DBA?
Its best to think of the training digs as a quick look at site life, and the degree as background knowledge and training in how to do research and the basic skills required to write reports. But the real training starts in the commercial world.
Its not patronising, its fact. (although Dino I suspect is stirring:face-stir
Many students and new diggers of course realise this and grab every opportunity to learn new stuff...some do just moan, I know, I've been there.
The key is you should never stop learning....noone (not even Dino) knows everything about archaeology, those most likely to succeed in this bizzare industry are those most keen to learn and constantly improve.
However I have noticed that some people seem to be 'natural' archaeologists and others just never get it.
As for the future of the industry.......who knows! We are reliant on the whims of the present governments plans to change the planning regulations.
Q: how many archaeologists does it take to ruin an industry? - P Prentice - 30th March 2011
no. we are reliant on ourselves - the diverse strengths and multifarious skills we have. the future of the industry will be shaped by those who get their hands dirty (pun) and we need a concenus of people who can be bothered t try
Q: how many archaeologists does it take to ruin an industry? - GPStone - 30th March 2011
P Prentice Wrote:no. we are reliant on ourselves - the diverse strengths and multifarious skills we have. the future of the industry will be shaped by those who get their hands dirty (pun) and we need a concenus of people who can be bothered t try
I think I agree to some extent or another with both of the last couple of posts. We do have a certain dependency on the government's decision making, but it also comes down to how we all respond to any decisions (the question of whether we are to some extent unified or not, will make a difference).
However, on balance and experience, I wouldn't be inclined to start denigrating large swathes of the profession or specifically the management. I have seen appalling incompetence (often from very nice people) at management level. I've also seen excellent examples of management, both holistically and in relation to specific, individual competencies. The same goes for entry level archaeologists - some care, others don't; some are misguided and others actually took the time to figure out what skills they needed and what they were getting themselves into......and some can just wing it.
One thing I would note is that there is something of a failure in some areas of management that appears to correspond with the Peter Principle and seems to arise as a result of rewarding individuals for service, not merit. It also links in to that irritating managerial mantra that comes out a little to often amongst some individuals (as has already been mentioned) of, "I 'ad to go through it so I don't see why you should complain about it!" If it relates to a situation that would be consider acceptable in any analogous professional situation then its fair enough to not expect a member of staff to complain or take issue (to much). But if its something that wouldn't be acceptable elsewhere (allowing for just a few of the various unique qualities of some of the work we do, I guess), then its the manager who should, wherever possible, express the aspiration (at the very least) to improve the situation even when it isn't economically possible to actually impliment changes or improvements to circumstances. Perpetuating intollerable or unacceptable circumstances is wrong whether it is a direct result of manager's actions or as a result of ancilliary or secondary circumstances. It also relies on full communication to identify and resolve these issues in many instances.
In short, we should all be subject to a meritocracy. If an entry level member of fieldstaff can't do the job (subject to employment regs being implemented etc) then they shouldn't remain employed or should be subject to action to help them improve. Similarly, if a member of management can't do their job then they shouldn't be promoted to a point where they have the capabilities to impose their own incompetence on other employees (its common sense really, isn't it). One thing that should be implemented, however, is targetted training opportunities. Invest in your staff at all levels and they'll very often give back. And also ensure that staff at ALL levels work to their job description, not their perceived status! And beyond anything else, communicate! Everyday and in every way! :face-angel:
We really need everyone in this industry at all levels to start taking on and behaving in a way that can be considered personally and professionally responsible. That requires awareness and personal education and responsibility (it doesn't, however, mean we all have to start wearing suits and behaving like miniature careerist managers). And no offence intended to those people across all aspects of this profession that do already, and there are many. Ranting session over for the day!
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Back to the point at hand - I agree that there is a lot that can be done and shaped by many of us being willing to get our hands dirty, regardless of the oncoming challenges that any future planning reform might take. I'm up to my elbows and I don't regret it......but could do with a hand to scratch my nose!:p
Q: how many archaeologists does it take to ruin an industry? - P Prentice - 30th March 2011
in short - there is no excuse for any professional archaeologist to perpetuate or condone improper professionalism. likewise there is no justification in employing people who can not deliver what they are paid to.
if we want to be taken seriously our whole house must be in order.
and when all is said and done - a bit of stirring is always useful
Q: how many archaeologists does it take to ruin an industry? - Unitof1 - 31st March 2011
Quote:[SIZE=3]GPSTONE-We really need everyone in this industry at all levels to start taking on and behaving in a way that can be considered personally and professionally responsible. That requires awareness and personal education and responsibility (it doesn't, however, mean we all have to start wearing suits and behaving like miniature careerist managers). And no offence intended to those people across all aspects of this profession that do already, and there are many.
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I decided to define what the professional field archaeologist produces (all off my own back and with no help from anybody in the business). I came up with copyright. And I take that copyright to be of observations of the physical world. Often these observations cannot be repeated by anybody else. I then sell or loan out this copyright. When people hire me they are getting my ability to produce this copyright. I think that this makes me relatively clear headed in what I am doing and how it needs to be done.
I don’t think many in the business think my way, particularly those who have come through the system of the last twenty or thirty years. As I have previously highlighted and indeed said of BAJRs salary scales, no one appears to have the title of archaeologist in the business. I know of many examples of people who carried out the field work, who subsequently fell out with the management and claimed the archive that they produced but were refused it. I take it that everybody will try to rip of my archaeological copyright or pretend that it is not the most important asset of a field archaeologist. Sad thing is that often, because it is so over looked in the business, they don’t know that they are doing it. In most cases it becomes some aspect of employment law, for some class war or straight forward left vie right politics.
This is the world of the last twenty or thirty years
Quote:[SIZE=3]DINO-Don't do management, just attempt to turn their grand schemes into a quality reality despite all the hurdles thrown in my path, of which wingeing workforce who can't be bothered to pass a driving test and expect to be ferried around to the shops etc in my car during my time and at my expense come pretty high up the list (top marks to the guy on the M1A1 who announced at 7.30 one evening while I was eating my tea before heading to the pub for a few well-earned beers that he had a critical medical appointment at 8pm 20 miles away...got back at midnight...tosser), closely followed by those who seem unable (despite all attempts to train them otherwise) to record stuff in an intelligeable manner to a remotely adequate standard thereby wasting even more of my time - sorry to those reading this who can do all this, but there are an awful lot of you out there who can't, even if you think you can (which is even more annoying)
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Who is the field archaeologist here? Without one there is no such thing as field archaeology. The establishment through charity units like molas and all the rest set up the archaeological structures which we still have to day. The private companies have mostly copied those structures. Occasionally you hear about cooperative ventures but I have yet to hear about ones where the field archaeologist is distinctly defined.
Q: how many archaeologists does it take to ruin an industry? - Jack - 31st March 2011
P Prentice Wrote:no. we are reliant on ourselves - the diverse strengths and multifarious skills we have. the future of the industry will be shaped by those who get their hands dirty (pun) and we need a concenus of people who can be bothered t try
In a philosophical sense I agree with you.
But in the real world you only have to see the effect on out industry caused by the construction industry pausing to take stock during recent global money troubles.
What do you think will happen when the goverment removes the need for archaeological mitigation from the planning regulations or hands over such descisions to local people without the requirement of specialist input?
Q: how many archaeologists does it take to ruin an industry? - P Prentice - 31st March 2011
Jack Wrote:In a philosophical sense I agree with you.
But in the real world you only have to see the effect on out industry caused by the construction industry pausing to take stock during recent global money troubles.
What do you think will happen when the goverment removes the need for archaeological mitigation from the planning regulations or hands over such descisions to local people without the requirement of specialist input?
this is the real world and fundamental to our task - now - is to make such a noise that the government wont be able to because we will have made it clear that it would be unacceptable to the great voting public
if we stop engaging with the real world like it's a soap opera, and start getting our act together, we can get the thing done
Q: how many archaeologists does it take to ruin an industry? - Jack - 31st March 2011
That would be nice. If it happened...........and it worked.
It took a petition of half a million people to stop the selling off of the forestry commision forrests..........but even that didn't stop all the selling I heard.