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Government vote on higher education fees - Madweasels - 9th December 2010

Just watched some overhead views on the TV. Saw a squad of riot police charge into the rear and flank of a group of people who were no way involved with a main struggle at the head of the crowd. This is just outrageous. Odd too, considering that over the next year or so many of those policemen will probably be losing their jobs. Perhaps the students should start lobbying the police, remind them that they will be next.

Noticed that the Localism Bill is going to be presented to the Commons on Monday.

Government vote on higher education fees - Madweasels - 9th December 2010

Sorry - just realised, of course, that retention or otherwise of policemen will probably be performance based. Those guys laying into the young people outside the HoC are probably now the high performers in the force. Well, they will be safe!

Government vote on higher education fees - GnomeKing - 9th December 2010

"Noticed that the Localism Bill is going to be presented to the Commons on Monday."
distract with clever timetable
all going to Tory plan then....Sad

Government vote on higher education fees - GnomeKing - 10th December 2010

various outrages of police or protester behaviour will undoubted emerge more clearly, or be alleged, over the next few days...

i am concerned the BBC 10 news led with the inconsequential attack on suspiciously poorly routed royal....and them immediately began to write history by stating that protest will ONLY be remembered for violence.....obviously the gutter press all focus on this also (eg Daily Mail WTF!!!!)

i am concerned by the range of ill informed and bigoted views flying around discussion networks today....a key theme was that violence is unjustified, and thus the protest is unjustified, and therefore the police and government have acted correctly.

alternatively, apparent comments from individuals at the scene suggest that there were numerous incidents of police provocation and intimidation, leading to aggressive stand-off, heavy handed policing, and immediate angry reaction from large crowds......

Perhaps i could find room for debate with someone who believed violence was merely a Tool - however, it can never be a Sufficient tool, and i personally would question its Necessity in any circumstance...however this i know;

-political reform over recent human history has frequently at some point involved angry citizen mobs (of many affiliations) venting their anger on individuals and property. Britain, America, Athens............
-violence is a symptom of this condition of cultural change,
-historical knowledge of our species suggests that violence in rioting is somewhat predictable, even if undesirable, and is somewhat independent of the particular ideas at stake.

...To condemn this protest for its Vandalism and Violent aspects, is to Also condemn Thomas Paine etc. etc etc etc etc - the Instigators of 'Social' and 'Democratic' norms that we now take For-Granted, and which are now cited as the proper avenues of conduct for citizens to convey Deep and Important Anger!

Clearly, such a position would be Un-Democratic by any measure...i do not therefore condemn the violence and vandalism per se - i condemn the Public Servants and State Agents who inflamed a flammable situation - with predicable consequences - they did not step aside to the overwhelming Will of Citizens.

Two different views;

We are citizens. The police are public servants. It serves the public good for levels of order to be maintained. However state officials should all be subordinate to the Good of the People.
Lines of uniformed police in confrontation mood are guaranteed to upset potential volatile crowds of motivated and angry people (especially young people)
Using mounted officers as a mobile rolling barrage on crowds of Citizens is an extreme measure, and deeply intimidating.
It is so emblematic of 'peasant' vs 'solider-on-horse' conflict, it might even be an evolutionary wired perception - certainly it is, culturally speaking.

Kettleing is not 'passive' either - in fact it is extremely intimidating, and it is Guaranteed to create lingering animosity

- i think it is probably safe to contend that any human faced with confinement or violence against a companion will react in fairly predicable ways.........

There is no hope under the current government for better policing.

this might involve a much more stand-off approach, allowing protesters to regulate themselves (and not causing a commotion by intimidating easily inflammable crowds). Accept that if the crowd is large and angry, there will likely be some property damage. Accept roles as Servants of the people, not thier Custodians... Allow representatives of the demonstraters to report incidents that they feel need intervention. ... ironically surveillance technology might genuinely help here, despite my genuine fears and hatred of State Surveliance ( - but only on condition that the Special Branch Heavies go and fuck Right OFF... more peaceful protest and effective policing CAN be achieved with FEWER in-your-face coppers.

The trick, is not to Control,
the rioters, but to
Not Cause the riot.

This is OUR country - OUR streets - OUR government offices and monuments(object biography anyone?) - we WANT them -we WANT them to work FOR us
- we DONT WANT shit in our own Herb Garden (not unless we have too...)

damage occurs when situations are inflamed,
damage also occurs when anger is very great and specific - ie the Manifest Emotion of the populace, and Will of the People.

"give us our money back!" they chanted as they harassed and broke windows of the Treasury.

I heartily agree.

Government vote on higher education fees - lacrimosa - 10th December 2010

GnomeKing Wrote:police already justifying their behaviour by citing that the protesters did not stick to agreed route.


...bit like the Lib Dems then...

Government vote on higher education fees - GnomeKing - 10th December 2010

Government vote on higher education fees - GnomeKing - 10th December 2010

also check out Horse and Hound Forum : topic 'police on horseback charge at protesters' for some amusing debate

Government vote on higher education fees - Dinosaur - 10th December 2010

Maggie's highly successful solution to beligerent miners was to get rid of the mines....... :face-thinks:

Government vote on higher education fees - GnomeKing - 10th December 2010

does wot it say on tin

Government vote on higher education fees - Jack - 13th December 2010

This is a complex issue that isn't helped by shoddy reporting.

I went to university twice. The first time I got a grant and a sponsorship...drank loads, party hard and scived...all at the tax-payers expense and failed the course.

The second time I paid for the degree...fees and living expenses..and got a student loan. Did work got a degree.

Paying for the second degree made me take it seriously and knuckle down.

I know many many many other students who spent taxpayers money on beer and enjoying themselves....what did the taxpayers get in return? nowt.

I truely beleive that people should pay for their own further education, going to university isnt a right...its an ambition that should be worked for.....however.....some families can't afford to pay for their sons and daughters to go on to further education, these people should receive help......should their son/daughter get a degree, then a good job...earning enough money to pay back the money, then why shouldn't society expect them to do so?

The fact is its a means tested loan.....not a payment issue...whats the problem?

On the issue of the protests....the right to make peacful protest is VERY important to everyone, so I deplore the continuing police scare tactics and heavy handidness AND the media political mis-representation of the facts.

However, I have always considered the anachist and/or violent minorities who ingratiate themselves to any protest movement as brainless morons who do more bad than good. How does smashing stuff up help anyone? Do they realise they are just giving ammumition to the 'enemy?'

The only way to change society is to be a part of it.....and not taking the easy route of 'opting out', then sitting around smoking and moaning about every-thing being 'crypto-fascist' or some figure-heads fault. Then hi-jacking someone else's useful protest as an excuse for pointless violence and vandalism.