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Quote:quote:Originally posted by BAJR Host

I think, this is showing how and why a private (as well as public) forum is needed... like it or not.. just by being a man, it is hard to understand... as Maggie once said to me.. as I breezed on about how I loved Eastern Turkey and the sense of freedom.. and able to sit and chat...etc... "you would though.... you are after all a man... I am a woman and see a different world... walk in my shoes?? you can't... "

Rat, your inability to realise that parts of the near and middle east aren't very female-friendly wasn't because you are a man. The treatment of women is something that screams out at many travellers to that region, regardless of gender. I, for one, could see that 'different world', as much as I am able because obviously being a man I couldn't visit most forums of female social activity. Hmm...I think I'll leave the obvious comparison for readers to draw for themselves.

'Just by being a man, it is hard to understand', is complete rubbish and highly offensive, I'm afraid. To set up any organisation ostensibly working for equality on foundations of inequality is hypocritical and doomed to failure. To quote Schlesinger (taken from the wikipedia article on identity politics): basing politics on group marginalization fractures the civil polity, and therefore works against creating real opportunities for ending marginalization. My first reaction when reading this thread was to leave well alone: better not get involved as I'll get pilloried if I say anything contentious, because I'm a man, aren't I. There you go: identity politics; my genes above my ideas. It doesn't have to be that way though.

To address this issue more practically, let's take one of Underscore's examples: a lack of female toilet facilities. Like Dr Peter, I was shocked by that; where the hell does that still happen? If it does happen, it's not because Underscore (or whomever) is a woman; that has nothing to do with anything. It has to do with their company not providing adequate facilities. It's something so basic I'd have to go away and check to find out whether it's illegal; surely it'd be covered in the main contractor's method statements. What's wrong is wrong, and it isn't wrong because of the gender of those being wronged. This might seem a slim point to some, but it is absolutely fundamental.


Still no word on the BWA's take on this issue; don't they read BAJR forums?

Edited to add: I've taken so long replying that the last statement's out of date (and I'm late for work). Thanks for the post Deposit-it. Hopefully see you at TAG.

freeburmarangers.org
To set up any organisation ostensibly working for equality on foundations of inequality is hypocritical and doomed to failure. To quote Schlesinger (taken from the wikipedia article on identity politics): basing politics on group marginalization fractures the civil polity, and therefore works against creating real opportunities for ending marginalization. My first reaction when reading this thread was to leave well alone: better not get involved as I'll get pilloried if I say anything contentious, because I'm a man, aren't I. There you go: identity politics; my genes above my ideas. It doesn't have to be that way though.


freeburmarangers.org
[/quote]

As was said by Anne above, there is nothing in BWAs website or ethos that says that men can't join and have a say. In fact, many of the problems that women face are also faced by men, although possibly not to the same extent. However, the response to the formation of the group (both on Facebook and now out of it) demonstrates that there are many women that feel that they need to talk about these issues with other women and that they have not had the opportunity to do so previously.

With regard to the 'toilets' thing, those that have commented that this should be done for men and women are right. There are, however, 'rights' and then there are realities. Maternity leave is a right, but the reality is that if you need to earn your wage (and not the much lower level maternity allowance) then you have to go back to work before your child is fully weaned. Expressing breast milk on just about any site I can think of would be interesting.....

As to 'away working' and the 'desire' to be near home. A single Mum HAS to be within reach of school/doctors/childcare in case her child is sick. e.g. you're on your way to nursery to drop your baby off, it throws up all over you. You are a. now dealing with a distressed child b. now covered in puke and have to go and get changed and change the child c. now already late for work and d. you can't leave your child at nursery/school/childcare as they all have a 24 or 48hr exclusion rule about stomach upsets. There are also single Dads out there, but they are less common.

So, men aren't being excluded from the organisation. But some women would like the opportunity to discuss their problems and share solutions with other women. men will get their say too. And then hopefully BWA can pass some suggestions/solutions on to organisations in order to help everyone work more effectively and happily. Communication isn't a bad thing!

Edited to add - and as I'm also on the Facebook site, and quite a few people already know who I am anyway .....

Clare
First... glad to see the BWA moving forward.. and second..

perhaps I should clarify..

Quote:quote:Rat, your inability to realise that parts of the near and middle east aren't very female-friendly wasn't because you are a man. The treatment of women is something that screams out at many travellers to that region, regardless of gender. I, for one, could see that 'different world', as much as I am able because obviously being a man I couldn't visit most forums of female social activity. Hmm...I think I'll leave the obvious comparison for readers to draw for themselves.

Yes its easy to 'see' what 'we' see as inequality.. I ain't that dumb... :face-huh: however... do you 'think' as you jump in a taxi.. ah.. if I was a woman I would think twice, do you 'feel' uncomfortable when you sit on a bus? You can't, becasue as a man, you do, things without thought.. I also started to understand things were more complex when I worked in the eastern desert of Jordan, where the Mother was definately in control .. while in Yemen, what looked like gender iniquality, was actually a form of division of responsibility... women kept the money and doled it out.. while on other side.. there was obvious (to a western male eyes) repression.. but then... how many women in the UK are also repressed, beaten, kept down... take battered wives for example... just becasue there are battered husbands does not mean that one should not recognise the vast proportion as wives.. and so the major support sould be for women, without forgetting those men that are also living in fear. As a man, you grew up as a man, in a mans world, with male friends, looking at the world as a man.. its not your faiult, you can empathise and be aware... but you can't actually live each day as a woman... and so a female perspective will always be lost on those of us who are male...

it does not downgrade the rights of all.. but rather supports what is the issues that affect a particular group... men don't get pregnant (never seen that used to suggest that a man can't get a job... oh... what happens if your partner gets pregnant? Can we rely on you to stay in post? Its not a question, it is assumed, because you are a man, you will) etc...

The more I read, the more I am convinced that a secure forum is needed.

"Gie's a Job.."
Prof. 'Dolly' Parton
Quote:quote:Originally posted by BAJR Host

you can't actually live each day as a woman... and so a female perspective will always be lost on those of us who are male...
I disagree entirely; see earlier post.
Quote:quote:
men don't get pregnant (never seen that used to suggest that a man can't get a job... oh... what happens if your partner gets pregnant? Can we rely on you to stay in post? Its not a question, it is assumed, because you are a man, you will)
They also get bugger-all paternity leave, unlike in Sweden where they get 9 months. I once had a very interesting conversation with a friend who was arguiong that that was a feminist issue. I can certainly see it as a humanitarian issue. How do you see it?
Quote:quote:
The more I read, the more I am convinced that a secure forum is needed.
Well, it's your web-site, you can do what you like.

freeburmarangers.org
Oh and I only came back to post these:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/cis18.pdf
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/cis46.pdf

the former of which is a start.

Edited to add:
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/SI/si1992/Uksi_19...htm#mdiv20
see sections 20 and 21

Edited to add:

a direct quotation from the H&S policy of one of the larger units:

Employers of Pregnant Employees and Nursing Mothers
There are a number of pieces of specific health and safety legislation which apply to both pregnant women and
nursing mothers.
The Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations 1999 impose additional provisions relating to
pregnant women, women who have recently given birth or who are breast feeding. These new provisions
include extending the Risk Assessment requirements under Regulation 3(1) of the above regulations.
The Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992 require suitable rest facilities to be provided
for pregnant women and nursing mothers (Regulation 25).
The Manual Handling Operations Regulations 1992 also refer specifically in Regulation 4(1)(b)(i) to Risk
Assessments and the capability of the individual.
Health and Safety (Display Screen Equipment) Regulations 1992, Regulation 2 - Risk Assessment, also
talks about risks to the individual.
Reference should also be made to Health and Safety Executive (HSE) publication;
HSG122 New and Expectant Mothers at Work: A Guide for Employers
As well as the employer having responsibilities under the above Regulations, it must be remembered that
individuals also have a responsibility under health and safety law for their own health and safety whilst at work
and a common-sense approach should be adopted.
Other considerations should be given to issues such as emergency procedures, etc.
Quote:quote:Well, it's your web-site, you can do what you like.

Very petulant Tom, most unlike you... is it your time of the month?

Ooops... there we are again.. I am introducing a negative gender based slur...without thinking about what I am saying :face-huh: - can't think of a male equivelent of that often muttered (or thought) quote.

You don't seem to be willing to admit that the BWA are not being exclusive (see above.. several posts about how men are more than welcome to join and be part of debate) but acting in a positive manner to discuss and debate several issues which mainly affect women but also men (however much to a lesser degree)

You are correct about the maternity leave.. what about paternity leave.. in the smaller number of incidents where this is an issue - but then... via the BWA, this issue can also be resolved.

Its my website... but its everyones forum.

"Gie's a Job.."
Prof. 'Dolly' Parton
OK, sorry, as it hasn't been clear enough I think it's great that BWA are taking the stance they are, and will be joining next Teusday (assuming I haven't had to catch the train home by 6pm).

I'm going to shut up now, but for one more petulant point; surely paternity issues affect roughly as many people as maternity issues.

freeburmarangers.org
Smile and I am sure the paternity / maternity issue will be a valuable point of discussion for the BWA

"Gie's a Job.."
Prof. 'Dolly' Parton
Yes but.., statutory paternity leave is 2 weeks. Maternity leave is up to 52weeks although the normal is 26 weeks.

(I'm 5 months preggers!)
I'd like an Icelandic system; three months off for each of the parents, and three months to divide between them as they like, all on 80% pay. It means that parents are equally likely to take time off around the birth of a child. But then the Icelanders are rather more enlightened than us about such things.

If the BWA can help to have the existing employment/health and safety law enforced it would be a great start for them.
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