working in Ireland...

[dea]

Hi all! am thrilled to finally find a place where I can get my questions answered! (and I have a load of them...) right- I have a primary degree in history (with all my courses centred on medieval and earlier archaeology/history). I'm in the final year of my PhD- (research based on archaeology of children/women blah blah blah), and I have only 3 months (sigh) of feild work experience. sadly I'm on the 'elevated age' side for years of site assistant work to be really practical (31 years old last week.. again.. sigh) My biggest dillema is this- should I go straight into a MSc in Osteology (Bradford), or should I work a year (and if I do.. i'm assuming i will be site ass. 1/2?) and then do osteo in Cork (they are offering it in 07/0:face-thinks:- would a year (and three mo.[:I]) experience be 'enough' for me to be taken seriously in fieldwork? or would I be better off doing a MSc in excav. techniques right after my PhD? (which btw- the only place i learned them was directly on site during those short few months with a brilliant Director who was more than happy to teach God bless 'im)- but I KNOW I need more. spose I could take a chance and hope that I learn on site... what do you all think? I am pretty desparate for answers! Ideally I'd like to stay in the academic side (half in anyway) as I like it - but I really would like to work (other half of time) possibly as an osteo/ eventually Director...as well as this I'm somewhat restricted by the fact that I have a family (hence the primary and secondary degree from the same Uni). On top of everything I'm on full funding for my PhD- and one of the conditions is that I cant work at all. (which is the reason I had to stop work after only 3 mo. experience.)
sorry if that is jumbled.! I've read through all the threads.. and got the debates about field vs academic (one of the best descriptions I've ever heard for this is 'the hairy chested vs. the hairy chinned- doesnt leave much room for women tho.. at least hopefully..:face-stir:)-- anyway I feel my best choice is balace between the two...
hope this msg is clear (muddled mind... to many hours typing??? thanks in advance!

[diggerhobbit]

Hi Dea, phew you've been busy! :). I did my undergrad, masters and am now doing my phd part-time at bradford and digging full-time, this isnt working out too well for me but without funding i dont really have a choice! but aside from that i recomend the university highly. I did not do the osteo masters but i know most of the people who teach it and it has a good reputation. Its a very intense course though if you do it fulltime - however, there are plenty of research excavations that brad uni carries out that you may be able to become involved in/volunteer if you study there and there is also an archaeological unit just outside leeds, so maybe you could do the masters part-time and also get some digging experience? It maybe a good idea to contact units to see if there are any trainee site assistant jobs going in your area and build up your practical experience from there? hope this helps, good luck!

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

[diggerhobbit]

Hi Dea, phew you've been busy! :). I did my undergrad, masters and am now doing my phd part-time at bradford and digging full-time, this isnt working out too well for me but without funding i dont really have a choice! but aside from that i recomend the university highly. I did not do the osteo masters but i know most of the people who teach it and it has a good reputation. Its a very intense course though if you do it fulltime - however, there are plenty of research excavations that brad uni carries out that you may be able to become involved in/volunteer if you study there and there is also an archaeological unit just outside leeds, so maybe you could do the masters part-time and also get some digging experience? It maybe a good idea to contact units to see if there are any trainee site assistant jobs going in your area and build up your practical experience from there? hope this helps, good luck!

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

[dea]

thanks diggerhobbit- good suggestions- unfortunatley if i do the osteo in Bradford I will be commuting from Dublin (seems crazy I know- but i have a daughter in a gaelscoil here - all irish sp. school- and dont want to transfer her to an eng. sp. one.) also my partner (also finishing his phd will be working here.) what i was thinking of doing (similar to your sugg.) was to do the 2 year pt. time at Bradf.- and working part time here in ireland. I guess I'm really wondering how to mesh my academic (seemingly rather useless) quals. with fieldwork experience. would 3 yrs and some odd mo. of feild wk (most of it part time) be enough to undertake a position as a qualified osteo in Brit/Ireland? or as a supervisor? etc?
btw- could anyone tell me what exactly is the process of accreditation/moving up the ladder both here and in Brit? my understanding is GO= no experience, no quals, level 1/2 degree/and or some actual digging experience.... three years digging= possible to go for Supervisor, ... from here i have no idea. How exactly do you qualify for a Director/licence etc? and after how long? I'm really interested in the situation for Ireland, but would like to know the Brit way as well...
whatever happens I cant do a thing till my viva- (this nov/jan) like i said- its a condition 'of them who pays me'. i know im asking for answers to very specific (and rather jumbled) set of questions- but i am really in need of some practical suggestions from those who have the experience to help!- one last question- does any arch company etc really give a damn about hiring people w phds? i would cry if i thought my degree was worthless. ack.
[:0]

[dea]

thanks diggerhobbit- good suggestions- unfortunatley if i do the osteo in Bradford I will be commuting from Dublin (seems crazy I know- but i have a daughter in a gaelscoil here - all irish sp. school- and dont want to transfer her to an eng. sp. one.) also my partner (also finishing his phd will be working here.) what i was thinking of doing (similar to your sugg.) was to do the 2 year pt. time at Bradf.- and working part time here in ireland. I guess I'm really wondering how to mesh my academic (seemingly rather useless) quals. with fieldwork experience. would 3 yrs and some odd mo. of feild wk (most of it part time) be enough to undertake a position as a qualified osteo in Brit/Ireland? or as a supervisor? etc?
btw- could anyone tell me what exactly is the process of accreditation/moving up the ladder both here and in Brit? my understanding is GO= no experience, no quals, level 1/2 degree/and or some actual digging experience.... three years digging= possible to go for Supervisor, ... from here i have no idea. How exactly do you qualify for a Director/licence etc? and after how long? I'm really interested in the situation for Ireland, but would like to know the Brit way as well...
whatever happens I cant do a thing till my viva- (this nov/jan) like i said- its a condition 'of them who pays me'. i know im asking for answers to very specific (and rather jumbled) set of questions- but i am really in need of some practical suggestions from those who have the experience to help!- one last question- does any arch company etc really give a damn about hiring people w phds? i would cry if i thought my degree was worthless. ack.
[:0]

[diggerhobbit]

unless you were going for a specific position within an arch unit like osteologist or zooarchaeologist etc, i do not really think a unit would be too concerned about whether or not you had a phd, especially if it was just fieldwork you wanted - but having a phd would not hinder your chances either. However, to be a supervisor your looking at at least 2-3 if not more years excavation experience. I am sure that there are plenty of osteologists who post on this board who maybe able to advise you further concerning the oseto experience you need but i think that commuting to bradford even on a part-time basis will be extremely challenging/tiring, it is a very practical oriented hands on masters, so its not like you could just get by with having the lecture notes/scripts emailed to you. Are there no osteo courses in Ireland you could do? I would recomend maybe contacting bradford for advice concerning their osteo course and the study options they have available - maybe you could work something out with them? :D

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

[diggerhobbit]

unless you were going for a specific position within an arch unit like osteologist or zooarchaeologist etc, i do not really think a unit would be too concerned about whether or not you had a phd, especially if it was just fieldwork you wanted - but having a phd would not hinder your chances either. However, to be a supervisor your looking at at least 2-3 if not more years excavation experience. I am sure that there are plenty of osteologists who post on this board who maybe able to advise you further concerning the oseto experience you need but i think that commuting to bradford even on a part-time basis will be extremely challenging/tiring, it is a very practical oriented hands on masters, so its not like you could just get by with having the lecture notes/scripts emailed to you. Are there no osteo courses in Ireland you could do? I would recomend maybe contacting bradford for advice concerning their osteo course and the study options they have available - maybe you could work something out with them? :D

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

[dea]

thanks diggerhobbit- i'd say my best course of action is to finish up my degree here.. work for a year- do the osteo in cork (the only one i know of on offer ANY where in ireland) and then hope that year working is enough in the field. frustratingly cork cant even tell me 'for positive sure' if the osteo stream is running in 07/08. well, heres hoping. thanks again!:)

[dea]

thanks diggerhobbit- i'd say my best course of action is to finish up my degree here.. work for a year- do the osteo in cork (the only one i know of on offer ANY where in ireland) and then hope that year working is enough in the field. frustratingly cork cant even tell me 'for positive sure' if the osteo stream is running in 07/08. well, heres hoping. thanks again!:)

[diggerhobbit]

p.s. dea check out the IFA website, particularly this link for information on fieldwork training opportunities in the UK.

http://www.archaeologists.net/modules/icontent/index.php?page=41

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

[diggerhobbit]

p.s. dea check out the IFA website, particularly this link for information on fieldwork training opportunities in the UK.

http://www.archaeologists.net/modules/icontent/index.php?page=41

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

[dea]

brilliant! very much what i was looking for- am reading it now! cheers !

[dea]

brilliant! very much what i was looking for- am reading it now! cheers !

[dea]

upon reflection- (and after reading loads more threads/posts) ive decided to definatley do the osteo in cork in its next stream- meanwhile putting in serious time before, during and after in the field... for like the next 10 years. not sure i'll mention my phd to ANYONE either. (!) I just hope i get good directors/supervisors who are willing to teach current excav techniques. I've looked everywhere for a course here in Ireland- even pt time- anything- and cant seem to find one- so it looks like i'll just have to chance it. it would seem like a better idea to do at least a course first... frustrating... if i've got it wrong and anyone can suggest a practical field course here in ireland.. would love to hear!

[dea]

upon reflection- (and after reading loads more threads/posts) ive decided to definatley do the osteo in cork in its next stream- meanwhile putting in serious time before, during and after in the field... for like the next 10 years. not sure i'll mention my phd to ANYONE either. (!) I just hope i get good directors/supervisors who are willing to teach current excav techniques. I've looked everywhere for a course here in Ireland- even pt time- anything- and cant seem to find one- so it looks like i'll just have to chance it. it would seem like a better idea to do at least a course first... frustrating... if i've got it wrong and anyone can suggest a practical field course here in ireland.. would love to hear!

[rachstebbs]

http://achill-fieldschool.com/mambo/

6 week field school, but it does cost money, quite a bit... unfortunately most field schools do! I'm not sure how it works in Ireland with volunteering, but it may be worth contacting local societies to see whether they would like a hand with anything.
Good luck!

[rachstebbs]

http://achill-fieldschool.com/mambo/

6 week field school, but it does cost money, quite a bit... unfortunately most field schools do! I'm not sure how it works in Ireland with volunteering, but it may be worth contacting local societies to see whether they would like a hand with anything.
Good luck!

[dea]

rachstebbs- thanks very much for the info- at first i dismissed it- but upon checking their website i found they had seriously updated their courses! 375 euro is a bit steep- but then as you said- they are all expensive! I just want to make sure that 3 days intensive training in CAD/GIS etc would be sufficient? it must be cuz its IAI approved... just want to make sure before i pay my money... any one here have experience with achill field school courses?

thanks again!:)

[dea]

rachstebbs- thanks very much for the info- at first i dismissed it- but upon checking their website i found they had seriously updated their courses! 375 euro is a bit steep- but then as you said- they are all expensive! I just want to make sure that 3 days intensive training in CAD/GIS etc would be sufficient? it must be cuz its IAI approved... just want to make sure before i pay my money... any one here have experience with achill field school courses?

thanks again!:)

[troll]

Dea.Evening and welcome to the forum! If indeed field archaeology is your aim in life, one of the best theatres in which to learn your trade has to be in commercial archaeology.Lots of people there to impart knowledge/skills and-you`d get to experience varied sites/periods under pressurised conditions.I have to mirror the views of Hobbit- a doctorate will not elevate anyone in field archaeology to the role of director or even supervisor without putting the time in first. Don`t let that put you off.With a doctorate-at least you will have another string to your bow when diggin gets sparse.Trick is....go and dig.Lots.Good luck and enjoy!!:D

..knowledge without action is insanity and action without knowledge is vanity..(imam ghazali,ayyuhal-walad)

[troll]

Dea.Evening and welcome to the forum! If indeed field archaeology is your aim in life, one of the best theatres in which to learn your trade has to be in commercial archaeology.Lots of people there to impart knowledge/skills and-you`d get to experience varied sites/periods under pressurised conditions.I have to mirror the views of Hobbit- a doctorate will not elevate anyone in field archaeology to the role of director or even supervisor without putting the time in first. Don`t let that put you off.With a doctorate-at least you will have another string to your bow when diggin gets sparse.Trick is....go and dig.Lots.Good luck and enjoy!!:D

..knowledge without action is insanity and action without knowledge is vanity..(imam ghazali,ayyuhal-walad)

[sniper]

if you want to get into osteo, I would still echo troll's views and say, go and get as much digging experience as you can before you go into it. It is very useful to have plenty of experience of how sites work when you do osteo anyway, and it will be an extra string to your bow when looking for work once you've got your osteo masters. Commercial archaeology is probably the way to go, as I should imagine that that will be the vast majority of any osteo work you get, and working in it before hand will give you an idea of the constraints and pressures involved. Most units will also encounter human remains on a fairly regular basis, and it is great to be able to dig a skellie well as well as look at it in the lab. Be a digger and an osteo and you'll probably end up being asked to dig on any cemetery sites that do come up, whilst also acting as on site osteologist. Always better to advise diggers on the best ways to get good excavation and collection of skeletal elements whilst being on site, rather than complaining about any poor methods later in the lab.

whichever way you go, very best of luck :)

++ i spend my days rummaging around in dead people ++

[sniper]

if you want to get into osteo, I would still echo troll's views and say, go and get as much digging experience as you can before you go into it. It is very useful to have plenty of experience of how sites work when you do osteo anyway, and it will be an extra string to your bow when looking for work once you've got your osteo masters. Commercial archaeology is probably the way to go, as I should imagine that that will be the vast majority of any osteo work you get, and working in it before hand will give you an idea of the constraints and pressures involved. Most units will also encounter human remains on a fairly regular basis, and it is great to be able to dig a skellie well as well as look at it in the lab. Be a digger and an osteo and you'll probably end up being asked to dig on any cemetery sites that do come up, whilst also acting as on site osteologist. Always better to advise diggers on the best ways to get good excavation and collection of skeletal elements whilst being on site, rather than complaining about any poor methods later in the lab.

whichever way you go, very best of luck :)

++ i spend my days rummaging around in dead people ++

[dea]

thank you both troll and sniper for your advice- i intend on following it! great to get the answers to these questions! :):)

[dea]

thank you both troll and sniper for your advice- i intend on following it! great to get the answers to these questions! :):)

[Tim]

I just want to make sure that 3 days intensive training in CAD/GIS etc would be sufficient?

It's Not.
Period

Little Tim

[Tim]

I just want to make sure that 3 days intensive training in CAD/GIS etc would be sufficient?

It's Not.
Period

Little Tim

[dea]

Tim- could you possibly elaborate?

[dea]

Tim- could you possibly elaborate?

[disheartened]

• Freedom of Speech - please let members post ideas and allow for these to be elaborated on without fear of admonishment from others. HOWEVER ...
• Do Not post content that contains allegations about individuals or companies without first contacting BAJR by personal email. info@bajr.org failure to do so will result in the posting being removed.

if you want to post allegations which name a specific company... remember to contact me first - Dems da Rools!}:)

Edited by BAJR (perhaps willing to put it back if you email me first)


In any case, 3 days of CAD/GIS not in any way shape or form sufficient, in 3 days you'll barely learn how to set up a dumpy level.

Your best bet is to get a job with one of the companies rather than trying one of the few field schools here. but if you do want to give a field school a go, I know the Discovery Programme are taking on volunteers for the Medieval Rural Settlement excavations in roscommon, all the official volunteer places are gone, but ifyou're willing to pay your own bed and board for the 3 weeks, they'll probably take you on as a local volunteer. Otherwise, go and dig on the roads! There's always Tara!

I've heard good things about the Cork masters though, I know a couple of people who did the finds stream of it and got great theses out of it. Don't know anyone offhand who did the Osteo one yet. YOu could also try approaching Sligo I.T., they have a fairly new Archaeology undergrad degree, and I know they're trying to get into the environmental/sciencey side of things a bit more. They may be of some help...

[disheartened]

• Freedom of Speech - please let members post ideas and allow for these to be elaborated on without fear of admonishment from others. HOWEVER ...
• Do Not post content that contains allegations about individuals or companies without first contacting BAJR by personal email. info@bajr.org failure to do so will result in the posting being removed.

if you want to post allegations which name a specific company... remember to contact me first - Dems da Rools!}:)

Edited by BAJR (perhaps willing to put it back if you email me first)


In any case, 3 days of CAD/GIS not in any way shape or form sufficient, in 3 days you'll barely learn how to set up a dumpy level.

Your best bet is to get a job with one of the companies rather than trying one of the few field schools here. but if you do want to give a field school a go, I know the Discovery Programme are taking on volunteers for the Medieval Rural Settlement excavations in roscommon, all the official volunteer places are gone, but ifyou're willing to pay your own bed and board for the 3 weeks, they'll probably take you on as a local volunteer. Otherwise, go and dig on the roads! There's always Tara!

I've heard good things about the Cork masters though, I know a couple of people who did the finds stream of it and got great theses out of it. Don't know anyone offhand who did the Osteo one yet. YOu could also try approaching Sligo I.T., they have a fairly new Archaeology undergrad degree, and I know they're trying to get into the environmental/sciencey side of things a bit more. They may be of some help...

[Tim]

You'll need 3 months (8 hours a day with a teacher in the same room with you, giving you exercises and help) to master 2D Autocad work to any useful standard, 3 more months for 3D Solid work, 3 months for Surfacique work, and 3 months to master complex rendering (there's lots of down time involved in this bit waiting for the computer to calculate). Add a a couple of months for extra functions such as 3DS out, listing, exportation of attributes, LISPS etc. Nobody becomes 100% efficient in AutoCad. After a years decent training you will be 80% efficient at best. Another 12 months experience will get you up to 90% efficiency. Another year will take you to about 95% efficiency. However by this time you will have became a CAD generalist or a specialist in a certain domain (Architecture, civil engineering, mechanics etc) that you will only use certain functions and you should have such a gigantic "block library" by then it's really a question of "assembling" rather than "drawing".

If you do just 2D work you have no chance working in 3D or rendering.
If you do 3D work you will you use functions like "dimensioning", "Text", "page set up",very little (you'll already be drawing from 2D drawings, if you didn't do them yourself) and if rendering you'll be recording the images as photos (JPGs, Tif's etc), Rendering requires no Autocad drawing ability at all but you still have to know how 3D forms are constructed in order to attach the required materials.


GIS I can't help you with.

Little Tim

[Tim]

You'll need 3 months (8 hours a day with a teacher in the same room with you, giving you exercises and help) to master 2D Autocad work to any useful standard, 3 more months for 3D Solid work, 3 months for Surfacique work, and 3 months to master complex rendering (there's lots of down time involved in this bit waiting for the computer to calculate). Add a a couple of months for extra functions such as 3DS out, listing, exportation of attributes, LISPS etc. Nobody becomes 100% efficient in AutoCad. After a years decent training you will be 80% efficient at best. Another 12 months experience will get you up to 90% efficiency. Another year will take you to about 95% efficiency. However by this time you will have became a CAD generalist or a specialist in a certain domain (Architecture, civil engineering, mechanics etc) that you will only use certain functions and you should have such a gigantic "block library" by then it's really a question of "assembling" rather than "drawing".

If you do just 2D work you have no chance working in 3D or rendering.
If you do 3D work you will you use functions like "dimensioning", "Text", "page set up",very little (you'll already be drawing from 2D drawings, if you didn't do them yourself) and if rendering you'll be recording the images as photos (JPGs, Tif's etc), Rendering requires no Autocad drawing ability at all but you still have to know how 3D forms are constructed in order to attach the required materials.


GIS I can't help you with.

Little Tim

[the invisible man]

I learned to use Autocad LT (the 2D version) with 2 days formal small group teaching, then learning on the job. Being the first in the office to use it in anger there was no support or further training, but I was at it for part or most of every day.

I woudl certainly not say I am (was) a proficient ACad draughtsman by any means, but I didn't have to be. I was able to produce architectural working drawings quickly and efficiently, which was what was required. To be perfectly honest, the highly trained whizzkids and ACad jockeys were a pain in the butt and didn't last long, they took longer than ordinary joes and janes and had a habit of trying to be so clever no-one could read, print or email their drawings - and they know naff all about architecture or building!

But this was a specialised situation. Tim is right. It took me quite a time to become competent at what I needed to do in my narrow field. To be a proficient 3D drafter will take at least as long as Tim says.

We owe the dead nothing but the truth.

[historic building]

I first started using AutoCAD for dos (i am still remarkably young it was a very poor project with an old computer) which was an incredibly painful process. Autocad is far more difficult that most other generally used programmes as it is not intuitive in any way and just has to be learnt. I have used it now for about 7 years and there are a series of tasks which i can do - largely draw up plans and surveys, rectify photographs etc and i cannot really do much beyond that and, so far, beyond a bit of 3d have not needed to.

[dea]

thank you all for your advice/imput- I think what I will likely do- what is really my most realistic option- is to (after submitting my phd this nov) possibly -(next year- when I will have the opportunity to hopefully apply what I have learned) do the three day in both auto cad and GIS- and then hope that i can apply myself and my 3 days of learning on the job. I dont want to be a specialist in either area - I just want to add to my working knowledge of how to interpret a site in its entirety- what I will specialize in is osteo and I will definatley be doing the MSc in Cork in 07/08. I guess what I wanted to know was whether or not any of the 3 day Achill 'specialist' courses would be an adequate 'introduction' to GIS/CAD etc. Maybe I'm looking to try to be 'too' well rounded- but that doesnt seem like it would be a bad thing! regardless I will be sending out bucketfulls of applications to dig on any site I can get my hands on from this Nov- (ack- great time of the year to start)-and after a year of digging- get into the osteo (hopefully part time) all the while developing my fieldwork experience. thanks again all for your feedback- its been very much appreciated and has helped me see exactly (and rationally!) what I need to do!
thanks and perhaps I'll see some of you in the ditches this november!:)

[diggerhobbit]

Hi Dea,
Iv just received an email advertising digging opportunities for people of all experience levels at a consultancy based in dublin - i think the work starts next year but i havent read the attachment properly yet - anyway would you like me to forward the email to you?

diggerhobbit

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

[kevin wooldridge]

quote:Originally posted by diggerhobbit

Iv just received an email advertising digging opportunities for people of all experience levels at a consultancy based in dublin - i think the work starts next year but i havent read the attachment properly yet - anyway would you like me to forward the email to you?

Hi DH,

If you feel able to forward a copy of said mail to me at kevinwool@yahoo.com, I will add the details to my www.freewebs.com/outwageUK blog site.

[diggerhobbit]

Hi Kevin,

I will forward it onto you in the next couple of days - just going to check with the person who sent it to me first that thats ok, but i cannot envisage a problem.

cheers

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

[dea]

Diggerhobbit- yes please! and thanks in advance! :)

[kevin wooldridge]

Thanks DH for the information.

I have to say that this is one of the best presented 'job advert' sheets I have ever seen, excepting that they fail to mention the wages...Still 9/10 for the rest.

[disheartened]

I wish to apologise to Achill Field School for the comments which I made in an earlier post on this thread. These comments were my own personal comments, and in no way, shape or form represented comments from my employers or BAJR. I take full, personal responsibility for these comments, which I should not have made, as they breached the Forum Rules, and I apologise.

Rebecca Boyd