Recording Records

[garybrun]

What is the usual length of time before an archaeological dig becomes public record. Is there a set goal or standard.
Now please don't shoot me down in flames here as i try and explain what I mean.

There is a lot of talk about detectorists recording their finds and getting them into the public domain. After a little research and asking around I can see that there are many "archaeological digs/excavations still not recorded fully and items still in boxes from years back.

Who controls this...

As I said this is a honest question.. just trying to understand how the system works.

Gary

http://www.ukdfd.co.uk
Recording OUR heritage for future generations.

[garybrun]

38 views and not one reply!

http://www.ukdfd.co.uk
Recording OUR heritage for future generations.

[Oxbeast]

Not sure if this will be an authoritative reply, but here goes.
Sites all get recorded at the time they are dug, but what can be delayed for years is publication. This can be for a variety of reasons, but amongst them are
*delays in getting specialist reports
*difficult post ex that is a bugger
*the people who dug the site leaving and no-one else takes the archive on
*management not driving projects through

Oh, and budgetary problems, i.e. running out of money.

Not sure who polices it, but unit(s) have been discouraged from reapplying for IFA membership based on non-publication of sites.

[garybrun]

Thank you for that...
Now see how this fits in...

Why are detectorists being asked to record their finds instantly and add it to the archaeological record when archaeologists take years. See what I'm getting at.
I'm trying to understand you as you are trying to understand my methods.
David you also bang the drum of adding to the archaeological record (so do I).
but isn't this a case of the pot calling the kettle black.
We (detectorists) are recording small coins and artifacts and you (archaeologists) are not finalizing (the record). In which we all agree.. archaeology is a highly destructive practise. you forget or miss lay it.. its gone.

I have come across a few cases were even finds have gone missing and boxes mislaid etc.
there was a post on here not long ago regarding material by a late archaeologist that no-one could find. As far as i know they still haven't found it.

This is a debate... not an I'm right your right scenario so please don't get angry with me.
thanks

Gary

http://www.ukdfd.co.uk
Recording OUR heritage for future generations.

[drpeterwardle]

The finds are recorded straight away to a degree and note made of them on the SMR/HER. Detailed study and publication takes a little bit longer for 100s of kg of pottery.

Client confidentiality can be made for six months in some cases.

Summary reports are published annually.

These days client reports for say an evaluation will be available on the net within a month.

Peter Wardle

[garybrun]

Thanks Peter

http://www.ukdfd.co.uk
Recording OUR heritage for future generations.

[voice of reason]

You say:
As I said this is a honest question.. just trying to understand how the system works.

then:
Now see how this fits in...

Frankly the reason you get 38 views and no response is that the agenda is pre-set - bored with no-one responding on Britarch to the bait either?

Simple answer - finds excavated by professional archaeological contractors are recorded at point of discovery and archived. Data is intact, curated and secure for long-term preservation. Detailed analysis takes longer because we are interested in relating finds to context (important word) and coming up with an integrated interpretation of the data. Spot the difference?

[garybrun]

The voice of reason is full of himself and seems to be making himself look like a... wont go there.
I have tried to debate on britarch in honesty... Ive tried to debate on here in honesty.
Some of you are all so stuck in your ways. Your sarcasm is ... not worth writing about.

David.. please remove me from the conference. were flogging a dead horse. Ill try other avenues.

http://www.ukdfd.co.uk
Recording OUR heritage for future generations.

[voice of reason]

bye bye then, he said sarcastically

Frankly, fed up with *****footing about on this, we are 'set in our ways' because we are in it for different reason. No amount of 'ooh don't we have common ground' will work ultimately because we have fundamentally different starting points. To put it simply - the choice is - that's a field full of finds which I can detect, pick up, clean (in a variety of interesting ways) and identify and then go back and do it all again in a groundhog day kind of way or move on find another field because it's about the thrill of discovery and/or the prospect of reward - or - that's a group of interesting metal finds that someone has responsibly reported via the PAS. I wonder why they are mixed Roman and later medieval, is there anything in the SMR or Record Office, any other non-metal finds on the field, how does it fit into the known settlement pattern ie why are they there and what does it mean?

[garybrun]

Yes your in it for a pay cheque and no amount o "ooh don't we have common" ground will work.
And i will stand by that statement... becasue I dont get paid. In fact Ive never sold a find too get paid.
In fact i dont own any collection at all becasue I hand it in.

You have no idea of work is going in the background because you cant see further than your own nose.
In fact I would say that you don't want to see and are blinded by your own prejudices and nothing will change that.
Your ignorance of the facts shows it. In fact i would go as far as saying your jealous.

[voice of reason]

ne nah, ne ne nah.

jealous of what, dear heart?

[garybrun]

very childish...

[John Walford]

I can't talk much about excavation, but in my main line of work, geophysics, the report writing process is fairly quick and straight-forward. A small report can be turned out in a few days and even big ones would normally be done within a matter of weeks. A copy would then go to the relevant county archaeologist, but it would probably not be released to the public domain straight away.

The reason for the delay is that many surveys will have been comissioned and paid for by a developer as part of their preliminary environmental assessment of a site. Because they own the report they are within their rights to keep its conclusions confidential until such time as they submit a formal planning application. This can mean that a report doesn't become available to the public for a period of months or sometimes (especially in the case of large infrastructure projects) years.

Of course geophysics, being an evaluation technique, forms a rather special case, and is perhaps slightly tangental to your main question. Hopefully there are others on this board who can give you a bit more insight into the situation with regard to excavation projects.

John

"Hidden wisdom and buried treasure, what use is there in either?" (Ecclesiasticus ch20 v30)

[voice of reason]

Childish? I was tryiing to point out the irony of the man who posted:

You have no idea of work is going in the background because you cant see further than your own nose.
In fact I would say that you don't want to see and are blinded by your own prejudices and nothing will change that.
Your ignorance of the facts shows it. In fact i would go as far as saying your jealous.

I repeat - you know nothing about me, the context I work in, my ethics, or my background.

what 'facts' are these? what am I jealous about?

[garybrun]

Thanks John.
Appreciated.

Voice of reason... you definitely need to change your Internet name. :face-huh:
Just reading a couple of your past posts they are a little biased towards Steve and myself and both contain the words Britarch.

[voice of reason]

Never knew I was on Big Brother. Britarch Britarch Britarch. If you have read my posts you may noticed that I stopped reading Britarch to get away from the tedium of the rehashed "debate" and the inflammatory posts of those involved. I revisited recently after BAJR Host and Stev posted to find nothing had changed so came away again. I pointed out to Steve B that I thought certain language was inappropriate and strangely, much as here, it became personal.

It is nothing personal, no matter how much you try to make it so, I am sure you are good company and love your nearest and dearest, but I come from a different position and really have seen nothing over the last 20 years of direct experience to change my mind.

[garybrun]

But you missunderstand...take a look at this thread..
There was nothing wrong or sarcastic until you joined in it.

quote:Frankly the reason you get 38 views and no response is that the agenda is pre-set - bored with no-one responding on Britarch to the bait either?
What was positive in that in that??
How can that be part of the voice of reason???
You have dragged your opinions & prejudices over from Britarch to here.

Please go through my posts and please tell me when I have acted in such away to you.

[drpeterwardle]

A thread which asked a sensible but loaded question has changed into something else.

Can all posts be constructive and about the topic.

Peter

[garybrun]

Peter... I promise it was not loaded.
It was an hoest question that was asked becasue I was looking into conferance material on standards... which i know nothing about. Hence the question.

[historic building]

The absolute, vast majority of archaeological work is completed relatively swiftly. This is because it is undertaken as part of the planning process and is conditioned and has to fit into the timetables required for planning applications, if pre-determination.

If archaeological work is not completed the condition cannot be discharged. If conditions are not discharged then buildings cannot be sold, occupied or used; it will be impossible for the developer to complete a sale. As I am sure you can see this does add a level of encouragement for the completion of works.

There are many organisations who have a backlog of historic work, largely from the early years of PPG16 and before. This is a very serious issue.

[garybrun]

Thank you historic building.
That's what my research had shown a little about the back log.
Its a shame it got moved to the metal detecting thread as i posted it in bajrbaiting... and it was a true question with no loaded gun as two people have tried to point out already.

I think the archaeological condition is not completed is a great incentive to get the work done.
So is PPG16 working today???
What pressure is being put on various organisations to get the backlog sorted out?

I would like this topic to be put back into the original section I posted it to.

Peter / David... please feel free to delete my detecting comment if need be (that's why i think it was moved here... not very polite in my view when I stated I was asking an honest question).
I am never going to understand some of you guys unless i can understand your way and systems and be able to question them freely.

[drpeterwardle]

if archaeological work is not completed the condition cannot be discharged. If conditions are not discharged then buildings cannot be sold, occupied or used; it will be impossible for the developer to complete a

[BAJR Host]

quote:if archaeological work is not completed the condition cannot be discharged. If conditions are not discharged then buildings cannot be sold, occupied or used; it will be impossible for the developer to complete a..

At that point the men in black came and took Peter away....

"Ye know tooooo much..."

"No job worth doing was ever done on time or under budget.."
Khufu

[garybrun]

Peter has been obducted by....

[drpeterwardle]

Not sure what happened to the original message which should have read something like this:

Historic Building said.

"if archaeological work is not completed the condition cannot be discharged. If conditions are not discharged then buildings cannot be sold, occupied or used; it will be impossible for the developer to complete a sale."

This is not completely correct - in particular the second part. It all depends on what the conditions actually say. The lack of a discharge of a condition can cause difficulties.

On many projects which involve an excavation the post X and publication will be completed years after the development is complete.

Peter

[historic building]

I am having quite good fun and games at the moment over a property that is being sold on with an undischarged archaeological condition. The owner bought the property without the condition discharged and completed the sale. The condition was never discharged as no agreement was made to complete the post-ex. We have been contacted by the purchaser’s solicitor requesting the discharge of the condition, which, of course, we are unable to do until funds are agreed to complete the post-ex.

I am waiting to hear from the enforcement team for this district to see what happens… They have indicated that the owners of the flats in this block are now liable for the discharge of the condition. Such a shame they were bought off plan as investment properties.

[beamo]

'David.. please remove me from the conference. were flogging a dead horse. Ill try other avenues.'

Gary - don't go yet - there's still much more to discuss, although I think that DrPeter has already given the correct answer to your initial (and unloaded) question. Archaeologists' findings are given to the SMR (or similar) when the initial (or assessment) report is given to the County Archaeologist. this is not the same as achieving discharge of any relevant planning condition, and we have discussed here previously the limited options available to enforcement officers regarding the non-discharge of conditions.

In the example quoted by HB I doubt very much that the current owners are responsible for the completion of the works required to achieve discharge - even if this were true then the current owners would have an equally strong case against their conveyancing solicitors.

Similarly the issue of unpublished excavations has been previously discussed - much of this backlog predates PPG16 and relates to the 'glory days' of rescue when volunteers/YTS etc could be mobilised for fieldwork, but no funds were available for p/x and much of the archive was of poor quality. To give EH some much-needed credit they have put a lot of money into this over recent years and some major excavation projects have been published.

Beamo

[historic building]

Well this is the interesting bit they bought off plan before any works had even started. This is the position that enforcement have told me they are in. This is a very fun development there are a NUMBER of undischarged conditions, including the facing materials for the structure.

[beamo]

Could be very interesting - keep us all posted on this one.


Beamo