Henges Rally Report

[BAJR Host]

http://www.bajr.org/Documents/Rally_Henges.pdf

There we go... have a read.. I could have written so much more... but hey... this is all done for free - !

Read and comment - questions welcome.

"No job worth doing was ever done on time or under budget.."
Khufu

[Steve-B]

What an interesting read.

Even though I did not attend this particular rally, I have to say that you have picked up very well on the general attitudes prevalent at these rallies.

I do not for one second feel that any of this was put on just because of who you are, these are the comments and responses I as a detctorist myself would give and expect to recieve.

A very well presented report David, well written (although you still yet have to learn to spell THE... :-) )

I would even seriously suggest sending it off to one of the hobby magazines such as the Searcher, who I feel wouild be more than happy to puiblish this report... if you like, as I deal with them in my work I would be happy to approach them initially on your behalf.

Very encouraging...

www.detector-distribution.co.uk

If a job is worth doing, then its worth doing it tomorrow!

Homer (Simpson)

[Cautionary Tale]

Very informative, much back slapping :face-approve:

In the spirit of inter-communication, shouldn't the IFA or maybe CBA be publicising this too (if not the full report, perhaps a summary about PAS's work at rallies)[?] - delete key at the ready if the all knowing BAJR has already done so/dismissed the idea.

Quanto legno potrebbe un mandrino della marmotta nordamericana se una marmotta nordamericana potesse bloccare il legno nel mandrino.? (www.rathergood.com//)

[BAJR Host]

If some-one would be interested?? I am .... shall we say reicent about placing this directly on Britarch, given the... er.... unmoderated nature... not that I am agin a critique... though it would be nice to have it out in the open before it gets shot at!

"No job worth doing was ever done on time or under budget.."
Khufu

[Cautionary Tale]

quote:Originally posted by BAJR Host

If some-one would be interested??

I take the point about Britarch, but this does need to be put out there for consideration of the massess currently at the fringes of the centre ground.



Quanto legno potrebbe un mandrino della marmotta nordamericana se una marmotta nordamericana potesse bloccare il legno nel mandrino.? (www.rathergood.com//)

[BAJR Host]

The PAS has it already - (and Mr Barford was kind enough to forward it to Roger Bland as well) I have talked to the CBA (Dan Hull and informed him it is his to do with as he pleases. I have stressed it is a personal non official report of one persons view of a Rally and the interactions, perceptions etc.. as well as a look at the working of the PAS FLOs from first hand - I may have seen a slanted view as well.. but I feel I gave an honest and frank account of what I actually saw and experienced.. and what could be done to utilise this from an archeological point of view.
Nobody paid me for it, nobody influenced it... (nobody wants it! - nah jsut kidding) I think it is another personal view that shows that detectorists or archeologists or FLOs are all not as bad as we sometimes like to think... the PAS are doing a good job, that archaeolgists don't all want detecting banned, and would like to do more archaeolgoy, and detectorists are not all nighthawks, stuffing their pockets with artefacts. Certainly not rosey, but more pointing at a rosey future that is within grasp.



"No job worth doing was ever done on time or under budget.."
Khufu

[BAJR Host]

If anyone is feeling brave.. please feel free to place this on Britarch... but please understand I may not be replying to certain content on their board (the CBA are aware and understand) - as I have lost too much energy to get involved in further 'debate'.

pip pip !

"No job worth doing was ever done on time or under budget.."
Khufu

[garybrun]

Very good un-biased report David that I have come to expect from you. Keep up the good work mate.

Gary

http://www.ukdfd.co.uk
Recording OUR heritage for future generations.

[BAJR Host]

welcome!

"No job worth doing was ever done on time or under budget.."
Khufu

[tom wilson]

Hello David,
just a quick question. You've stated how many people and finds were recorded by the FLOs, but can you estimate how many people were actually at the rally? What proportion of the whole were the 150-200 people who showed you finds?

cheers,

Tom

[BAJR Host]

There were around 3-400 people (I thought it said that at the results section - sorry)

This would mean that around 50% of people had finds recorded. However this does not take into account a large numebr that had nothing actually worth recording... you would not believe the junk!

TO add a story I did not put in... (this is a person that recorded nothing with the PAS on this rally and so would appear as a statistic of Non-Recorder)

You all know I am a bit bad sometimes with my humour... I was walking in the fields and chatting to detectorists... one comes running up... (The person I was talking to will know who I mean!! ) and askes me to have a look at a find... it is a tine from a farming machine, with a brass strip on one end... I tell him not to worry and jsut throw it in the hedge.. once he is turned away.. I say loudly... "quick while he is not looking... grab it... thats a spear!!" He hears me and runs back... saying that he will now take it to the PAS table just to be sure.... he would rather they looked at it than it was either thrown away or worse... removed with out record. I did manage to convince him I was just being an arse - and having some fun! Though it showed me that this person would not let a find go unrecorded.. even if it was jsut an old tractor bit... he felt better safe than sorry...

Point being... some people found nothing at all worth recording... like me !! all I got was a George IV halfpenny... which no one would record.. (sigh) so I would be in the Non-Recording camp as well.

It would be difficult to put exact values... but say 50% of people found things worth recording 25% found stuff, but it was rejected 20% found junk but did not come in and 5% found stuff and kept it quiet... though these are very dodgy stats... (so I don't know how valid they are.) It would be easier to say that most people there (a massive percentage, were aware of what to do and did it)

"No job worth doing was ever done on time or under budget.."
Khufu

[Steve-B]

I agree, it would be wrong to say that everybody with recordable finds does record, hence the need to keep getting the recording message out.

As excellent a job a the PAS are doing, dont forget that there is an immense push from the detecting community itslef to promote recording, from the UKDFD to dealers, to the ordinary detectorist in the field.

I think Davids story above emphasises this and it is also important that this doesnt just come across as an attitude of trying to placate the archaeologists, or an attempt to keep the hobby going, there is a real understanding of the need to record out there and an independant willingness to do so...


It really is heartening from our perspective to see this being recognised in this way..


www.detector-distribution.co.uk

If a job is worth doing, then its worth doing it tomorrow!

Homer (Simpson)

[BAJR Host]

Steve puts forward a key point... the 'need' to record is one which is (and must) come from detectorists rather than being forced by archaeologists. In an atmosphere of reasonable debate, access to information and understanding, it is the detectorist who is pushing the message for recording... The message is getting out, and is more likely to be listened to.

"No job worth doing was ever done on time or under budget.."
Khufu

[garybrun]

Their IS light at the end of the tunnel...
by jove I think they've got it... they've really got it.

http://www.ukdfd.co.uk
Recording OUR heritage for future generations.

[BAJR Host]

we try !!

up the PAS and the UKDFD !!

"No job worth doing was ever done on time or under budget.."
Khufu

[Steve-B]

I guess I will be the first to say that a find from the Thornborough rally has now been posted on Ebay for sale.

Even though the find has been recorded with the PAS and as we know it is legal to sell finds that do not fall within the remit of the Treasure Act, this is still a dissapointing turn of events.

Fortunately, this is increasingly becoming the exception rather than the rule.

More dissapointing, I find is the blatant attempt to try to use this incident in an attempt rubbish the excellent BAJR report on the Thornborough Henges rally.

I find this opportunist display of spite equally as dissapointing as the selling of the find and seriously question the motivation behind this.

One bad apple does not spoil the barrell!

www.detector-distribution.co.uk

If a job is worth doing, then its worth doing it tomorrow!

Homer (Simpson)

[garybrun]

I agree with you Steve on some points but regarding the attempt to paint Mr Hosty in a bad light on Britarch I thought was just "tit for tat". Also the dragging up of "old" conversations for which apologies had been given to suit agendas when needed are out of action. Brown shirt mentality to me.

Regarding the find on Ebay.
It had been recorded in full.... did anybody want it or ask for it to be stored for the heritage record in a museum??

lets be honest with each other... metal detectorists and archaeologists are always going to have different views... especially when it comes to the buying and selling of finds. The two disciplines seem to cancel out each other at certain tangents.
How many stone axes are in the museums at the moment??
How many are on view to the public?
How would this one axe add to the historical record in a box... when its been recorded in full.

Mr VeryFast uses situations for his own agendas but then when an FLO was selling articles on ebay (from the Balkans) they didn't blink an eye. In fact the whole PAS and archaeological department and county council tried to cover the whole thing up . If I could post on britarch I would have given my reasons too for it. (well i can but I respect the wishes of the forum not too).

I also am collecting various articles and other information on how different things are going "wrong" within the governmental structure of archaeology and various heritage groups to counteract the onslaught that will becoming our way soon.

Many people just play lip service and hide behind keyboards and dont put their hands in their pockets or do anything that effects them "financially". I put my money were my mouth is.... and the results will soon be available for all to seeand hopefully when I am older I wont be judged as being a tired old man who is trying to make a name for himself on the back of heritage and thinking that my actions can make up for other lost years.


http://www.ukdfd.co.uk
Recording OUR heritage for future generations.

[BAJR Host]

Its sad but true the nastyness on Britarch... quite a few untruths.. though I will not get involved. It would only give them credibility... farts in the wind as they say in Gladiator... or was it smoke and mirrors!

"No job worth doing was ever done on time or under budget.."
Khufu

[achingknees]

I don't want to join in any us and them type argument but have to say...

In my opinion the axe was not fully recorded. Full recording, by a lithics specialist, would have included full biographical observations. I too could see that some of the flake scars seemed old, some possibly part of the original shaping. The later scars (not modern) are often seen on such axes. For some axes there was a propensity to flake off polished faces. This could be for utilitarian reasons, mementoes or to 'kill' the axe. These axes may well have had symbolic associations (having 'witnessed' important acts, deeds etc possibly inter-generational ties etc etc).

It was described as a Langdale axe. Unless the FLO had a portable XRF machine , how do we know? It could have come from one of several places: Cornwall, Leicestershire, Wales...These axes exhibit very interesting distribution patterns that inform on past human geographies, distribution networks, trade and exchange. Only full petrological analysis would have confirmed a Langdale origin. Who knows, in the future we may be able to tell which of the Langdale (or other place) quarries it came from.

The loss of such potential information is lamentable. Had it sat in a museum box it would have been available for future study. Who knows, perhaps one of its flakes could have been found in a prehistoric context. Re-fitting could have provided contextual associations.

The notion that it was just one of many is sadly wrong. I have seen many such pieces with no provenance or contextual information. They are sadly in the majority.

[BAJR Host]

THis is one of those conundrums... I won't hide the fact I was dissappointed at this - then life is full of such. On the other hand... Just how many more years could it have survived before being litle pieces of axe (?)


You look at the images and note it has been well clobbered...

One of the most difficult questions I am asked (by developers) is "don't tell me... you will find out that people lived here, they ate food and died" You then try and engage with, "but it is fascinating... the trade routes in the 3rd millenium of a porphritic ..." and watch them nod off.

ie... just why is it important? (of course I think it is though)

I digress...

Do I think that the axe should have been sold on Ebay -NO... is he entitled to do so - YES. Am I dissapointed - YES. Is it an exception or a Rule... well more and more so.. it is a rule. If there is a problem then we can't just point the finger at any one place or person.... there are lots of things to be disentangled... and in a way I am glad this report and fallout has brought these to the surface for discussion.




"No job worth doing was ever done on time or under budget.."
Khufu

[garybrun]

This is not a them and us argument.

I don't commend the selling of the axe but I stand up for his right to do so. Its just like me going fishing... (not metal fishing :-)...)and having someone tell me i cant do it because its hurting the poor little fish's mouth.

Ladies and gentlemen of the archaeological jury...your are greedy and want everything and yet some of you are willing to give nothing. If its wrong in your eyes... then work to have the law changed with the general public. But as the law stands the gentleman has every right to sell the find.

There was no notation given that it was just one of many... it was question to bring into the debate.
But I really think that if you are publicising the excavation of a Ford Escort Van I don't think the general public will take you very seriously at the moment.

Just for the record I personally would not have sold the axe and think such a move by this person was very bad timing. I shall contact him and tell him my thoughts too.
I also feel like I should start to flood the ebay market with all my old gold rings found before the treasure act and give Mr Swify and the PAS some work. Sad very sad.

http://www.ukdfd.co.uk
Recording OUR heritage for future generations.

[Steve-B]

In the mian as a detectorist I agree with David, it is indeed dissapointing, however I do feel that given the numebr of detctorist in the UK it is a phenominally small number that sell finds and my personal interpretation is that it is the exception rather than the rule.

And with continued contact such davids this will become even less so.

www.detector-distribution.co.uk

If a job is worth doing, then its worth doing it tomorrow!

Homer (Simpson)

[achingknees]

Hi David et al

I understand that metal artefacts don't survive well in the plough zone, but I'm not sure that argument stands up as well to polished and other axes. They are incredibly resilient. If not Britain wouldn't have the greatest Palaeolithic record in the world! Some 99% of handaxes are from ancient rivers, mostly in the gravels. Some have been through several glacial cycles but they are still recognisable and, furthermore, a great research resource! I see many many polished axes, sometimes just fragments. Usually the fragments are ancient breaks, and I believe many deliberately. Knapping polished axes, destroying them, burning them and depositing them seem to be special acts that occur in these sacrad landscapes.

Gary, I made the point about us and them arguments as I wanted to divorce myself from such and make a wider point. Please don't regard me as greedy. I have a thirst and hunger for knowledge but an overarching principle of mine is to share such with my peers and anybody else who is interested. David, I have seen eyes glaze over but I have also had developers who enjoy voyages of discovery.

I am not on the archaeological jury, but to extend your metaphor I don't mind being termed an expert witness.

The 'notation that it was one of many' was made by yourself:

quote...How many stone axes are in the museums at the moment??
How many are on view to the public?
How would this one axe add to the historical record in a box... when its been recorded in full. unquote.

I was trying to answer some of your questions.

Also, I want to emphasise that my comments were directed towards heritage collectors in general, definitely not a poke at MDs.

David's correct in welcoming the debate following his report. Should another similar event go ahead we have learned some lessons and hopefully an improved set-up might be achieved. Given the proximity to the henges and that they are the subject of ongoing research I would have hoped that any contemporary artefacts were kept together as a single archive.

[garybrun]

Thanks for the reply... we just misunderstand each other.

http://www.ukdfd.co.uk
Recording OUR heritage for future generations.

[Elgin]

quote:Originally posted by garybrunMany people just play lip service and hide behind keyboards and dont put their hands in their pockets or do anything that effects them "financially". I put my money were my mouth is.... and the results will soon be available for all to seeand hopefully when I am older I wont be judged as being a tired old man who is trying to make a name for himself on the back of heritage and thinking that my actions can make up for other lost years.
I presume this is deemed an acceptable posting?
This is a rhetorical question only, since evidently it is.

[BAJR Host]

I did not realise that it refered to any other individual, I thought it was about how gary wished to do positive action and not be seen in later years as a person who did nothing but said plenty.

If however you feel that this is a posting that breaches AUP, please follow procedure and report it to me via a PM. I will access the report.

Because this is a moderated forum, this option is available... as opposed to other unmoderated lists where BAJR can be reported as being a biased and untruthful.

Shocking.. Do please get in touch

"No job worth doing was ever done on time or under budget.."
Khufu

[Elgin]

quote:Originally posted by BAJR Host

I did not realise that it refered to any other individual, I thought it was about how gary wished to do positive action and not be seen in later years as a person who did nothing but said plenty.

If however you feel that this is a posting that breaches AUP, please follow procedure and report it to me via a PM. I will access the report.

No need, it was a rhetorical question, I knew the answer and you have confirmed it anyway.

I should be grateful if you would unsubscribe me please.

[BAJR Host]

You have been offered the option to complain , but have chosen not to accept it, for whatever reason ... it is a shame to lose you. I take it you would like your posts deleted, which will be a loss to this forum.

"No job worth doing was ever done on time or under budget.."
Khufu

[Elgin]

quote:Originally posted by BAJR Host

I take it you would like your posts deleted, which will be a loss to this forum.
I didn't realise a request to be unsubscribed involved that, but if so then no, I don't wish to cause a loss to the forum and will simply desist from posting.

[BAJR Host]

well in that case... don't post then... it's easier than posting that you won't post

"No job worth doing was ever done on time or under budget.."
Khufu

[Elgin]

quote:Originally posted by BAJR Host

well in that case... don't post then... it's easier than posting that you won't post
Since you insist on goading me I will finally add a clearer explanation - I could indeed have simply stopped posting but I wished to make it clear I was leaving because of your remark "I did not realise that it refered to any other individual, I thought it was about how gary wished to do positive action".

A blind man in a cellar would not have thought that so it was evident to me that any further such ill-bred personal attacks upon me would go equally unrecognised, hence my departure. That's all.

[BAJR Host]

Now you point it out... I see what you mean.

I am glad you don't get involved in personal attacks though, and would never stoop to suggesting that I somehow have no conscience - or that you would support suggestions I should have a BAJR Guide to Flogging your Detecting Finds on E-Bay. Jsut as well I can laugh at it, and not take myself seriously. After all I do dance round the room like a monkey as John so rightly says ;))

Now... thanks for pointing it out... can we have a smile now.



"No job worth doing was ever done on time or under budget.."
Khufu

[Steve-B]

quote:Now you point it out... I see what you mean. I dont, I took it as a generalisation.


I will smile if he has finished his Prima Donna act and finally stops posting!

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black..

www.detector-distribution.co.uk

If a job is worth doing, then its worth doing it tomorrow!

Homer (Simpson)

[DAZ 1900]

Just read the Report!

It was very well presented, totally un-biased and befitting of both the Hobby itself as well as the Author!

Well done Hosty!!

Darren

[BAJR Host]

Thanks very muchly....

Looking forward to the first live question time on UKDN tonight as well.

Real answers - real questions

"No job worth doing was ever done on time or under budget.."
Khufu

[garybrun]

quote:Originally posted by BAJR Host

Looking forward to the first live question time on UKDN tonight as well.

Real answers - real questions



Like how many achaeologists does it take to change a spark plug on a JCB [xx(] (only humour and in no way meant to offend any one what so ever except Hosty) [8D]

[BAJR Host]

I'm hurt ! ;)

"No job worth doing was ever done on time or under budget.."
Khufu

[Steve-B]

So am I..



I fell off me chair laughing.....

www.detector-distribution.co.uk

If a job is worth doing, then its worth doing it tomorrow!

Homer (Simpson)

[Corinne Mills]

quote:Originally posted by BAJR Host

Thanks very muchly....

Looking forward to the first live question time on UKDN tonight as well.

Real answers - real questions

"No job worth doing was ever done on time or under budget.."
Khufu


excellent job well done Badger!

Website for responsible Metal Detecting
http://www.ourpasthistory.com/md/indexa.htm

[garybrun]

Very well done...
I take my hat of to you Sir... and I dont do that often.

http://www.ukdfd.co.uk
Recording OUR heritage for future generations.

[BAJR Host]

Now that was FUN!!!!

I should explain to folks, I ahve jsut done a Q & A on UKDN... from 7:30 - 9:15... I am pooped, but feel that when you have no time to think, you are more honest in the reply... bloody marvelous! 6 A4 pages of replies !



"No job worth doing was ever done on time or under budget.."
Khufu

[Steve-B]

It was indeed great fun, very informative and very well behaved.

I didnt envy you being in the hot seat, but you pulled it off brilliantly.

Many thanks for donating your time, it was very much appreciated.

www.detector-distribution.co.uk

If a job is worth doing, then its worth doing it tomorrow!

Homer (Simpson)

[Alfie]

quote: Ladies and gentlemen of the archaeological jury...your are greedy and want everything and yet some of you are willing to give nothing. If its wrong in your eyes... then work to have the law changed with the general public. But as the law stands the gentleman has every right to sell the find.
You are of course absolutely correct that this individual has the right to sell their finds and anyone who disagrees with that being right should lobby to have a change in law. I for my part will do all I can to remove as much archaeologically sensitive land from all threats to it survival such as quarrying, ploughing, and yes detecting. I can do this by continuing to support the ban on detecting on National Trust land, local authority land and by bringing farms into the Higher level stewardship schemes.
I dont see this as anti detecting or adverserial in any way. In the spirit of honest communication do the detecting community here think that I am wrong to do so?

[Steve-B]

Its good to see your honest opinion Alfie.

My honest opinion is that yes your wrong to campaign for a blanket ban as I feel that this shows a distinct lack of understanding of the whole of metal detecting as a hobby and what it can and indeed has acheived and more importantantly its overal effect on archaeology or rather the lack of effect in most cases.

Your opinion seems to based on a worse case scenario of the hobby which is unfortunate.


quote:I can do this by continuing to support the ban on detecting on National Trust land, local authority land and by bringing farms into the Higher level stewardship schemes.

Could you explain how this is not anti detcting?

Can you explain in what capacity you work within archaeology?

www.detector-distribution.co.uk

If a job is worth doing, then its worth doing it tomorrow!

Homer (Simpson)

[garybrun]

I respect your views Alfie and your commitment to the heritage.
I also disagree with your blanket ban proposal as you do not as I read into your post, understand what detecting has done for the heritage.

Don't get me wrong I can see the damage that the minority have done and are continuing to do... but you always get bad apples in most areas.
Take a look here http://www.minelabowners.com/patera_dig.wmv you can see we have been working with the National Trust and Archaeologists and we put out money in our pockets and pay contribute to the digs. Not only financially but with our time too.
This is just one of many projects that happens around the UK but is drowned out by the loud noises of a few people who dont want you to hear about it.

Many people don't know what goes on behind the scenes and how the hobby is working hard to clear away the bad apples.
I am a member of this forum because I can come here and "debate" my hobby and not be judged as inferior and can have my say. If me being here can change one persons view on detecting or they can see it in a different light then its worth it.



http://www.ukdfd.co.uk
Recording OUR heritage for future generations.

[BAJR Host]

I should tell people that the axe was purchased and is now being sent to the Yorkshire Museum.. ny an Australian woman, who felt it should remain where it came from.

gary is right about what goes unreported.. both he and Steve may I say... are working for change.. and support is needed..

BAJR offers an opportunity for us to have civilised debate and listen to each other, hear each others opinions and try and see the different points of view... we may not always agree.. and thats good... it stimulates further debate, and also a feeling that we are equals, debating as equals..

We only ever hear about the "bad"... and in this case... nobody actually did anything wrong.. (in law) or bad..even. It is like judging archaeologists on the basis of a few bad apples in our line of work. I reiterate what I say/saw at the Henges Rally.... I met only people who were interested in the past... some knew vast ammounts ... others were specialists in particular areas... some did it just for a walk.. some will do it to get rich... (not too many of them about! - I saw no mercedes 4x4s !) Cooperation and unterstanding will allow a better future..


Speach mode over................

"No job worth doing was ever done on time or under budget.."
Khufu

[Alfie]

Gary and Steve thankyou for your responses; sorry if this is a bit rushed I only have a minute but: Steve I dont campaign for a blanket ban- in fact I actively support my local clubs and I think on a personal level they are great. Intelligent people who I enjoy spending time with. But (and there has to be one)I struggle sometimes to marry that with the core of my work as a local authority curator - to protect and conserve the historic environment for future generations and that in an ideal world is "preservation in situ" its what I ask of developers and utility companies and everyone. What I tried to say was that, again in an ideal world, the archaeology should left where it is as long as it can be demonstrated that it will remain undisturbed. Therefore I actively try and bring as much land as possible into managment which could be construed as being anti detectorists -is there a conflict of interests there? Is there a chance that detectorists would ever support me in protecting that heritage even if it means they will not be able to detect on those areas? As I say this isnt about all land, land will always be ploughed and quarried and developed and detectorists will always have land to detect, but proven sites?

[garybrun]

OK Alfie..
I think if we are honest there is always going to be a conflict of interest between both parties and we are not always going to agree on things. But what is needed on both sides is the recognition of what BOTH sides have achieved instead as within some circles calling an all out war. This is not an ideal world as we both know. Farmers need to plough their fields to feed themselves and the population. They don't want archaeologists scheduling their land. Detectorists will support you in my opinion.

When you have the time take a look at the link for the video I posted up.
This has turned out to be a site of National Importance and it will be scheduled. All the detectorists on this project when they realized what they had helped to find... none of them where against this.

In my opinion Alfie the archaeological community do not explain enough what is found and give recognition to those who have found it (hence my greedy statement). If you (archaeologists) where more open instead and trusted us you would find an even better communication and support.

Detecting will not be dictated to by archaeology... when people realize this and come to realize that WE (responsible detectorists and not those who just record with PAS as they would like them to be classified) all have the same goals for our heritage.

We have a legal right to do what we do and I would say that 95% do take the heritage seriously and are responsible. People just need to look for the good instead of the bad all the time. If I was to devote my energies in finding out all the bad apples in your profession.. what would that do and what would it achieve???
It would just fan the flames of discontent and mistrust.
I hardly see detectorists looking for mistakes that archaeologists make and go to such lengths to publicise them too.

The detecting community have heard about the "Gospel of Recording" and are working to propagate its message. But just like the Romans tried to persecute the Christians the Christians came through and are still here today and their message is spreading.

I would say to the archaeological community... recognise the achievements and the good that detecting can give to the archaeological record and you will achieve more than knocking it. You will gain trust and help in saving the heritage.... this is what both sides want.
Heritage belongs to everyone.

[BAJR Host]

Two stirring speeches in one day!!

seriously though

That was well said ... well said......

Alfie also has the valid point of the often duel personality we (as Curators) often have to contend with... My one comment to Alfie, and to archaeologists... have we forgotten what we are here for... to excavate and learn ... preservation in situ is a great ideal... though nobody has yet explained to me what exactly we are preserving? I have concerns about some sites that I fear are being preserved to death... and there I feel that detectroists, local groups etc can be supported and encouraged to help in these instances... Why preserve soemthing that in 10 yearts time won't be there? Such as Coastal Erosion Sites. Deep plough sites... etc

"No job worth doing was ever done on time or under budget.."
Khufu

[Steve-B]

Alfie, many thanks for your clarification.

I have to agree with Hosty that you and Gary have made two excellent posts.

I also agree with Hosty in having reservations in respect of 'Preservation in Situ'.

before I say why I would make it perfectly clear that this is has nothing to do with detecting, as I make perfectly clear when selling a machine, detecting is all about locating disturbed finds in the topsoil, it is nothing to do with undisturbed depostits, this is the realm of archaeology, NOT detecting.

My first reservation comes from the word 'preservation' is this really a correct term to use? Anything left in the ground, will to agreater or lesser degree, dependant on local factors, degrade over a period of time. Would it not be as criminal for archaeology to have been left unresearched in the ground for 'future generations' only to have been lost to the ravages of nature as detecting finds to go unrecorded?

Is anything truly being 'preserved'?

My main reservation though is similar to Hosty's, is not arachaeology all abnout digging and learning... unless archaeology feels it has learnt all it can learn then should not digging continue?

If archaeology on the other hand feels that it hasnt learnt all it can know from the past and intends to leave sites in situ for the future, for a time when perhaps more advanced techniques and technology will better be able to intepret the findings, then how may I ask is these more advbanced techniques supposed to be develeoped if no digging is to take place?

How can more enlightened interpretations be conducted if they are not constantly practiced and develeoped?

Surely this can only be done by continuing to dig archaeology?

I do appreciate that my above comments are just those of an interested party and not a professional.

I fully agree with Garys sentiments in respect of detecting.

Metal Detecting is not archaeology, should not be dictated too by archaeology, although we do have common interests.

Trying to preach artchaeological disciplines to a detectorist is in the main the same as trying to do the same to say an historian... there are areas of overlap, but they by nature have to function differently, all are to a greater or lesser or even different degree contibrute to the whole, which is our common heritage.

Metal detecting as I have said, is not about detecting and then digging into the undisturbed archaeology, but is about finding disturbed artefacts, and should be at all times about recording all the information these finds can supply.

Of course it is not going to be as comprehensive as that information to be gained from undisturbed archaeology, dug by professional archaeologists, it cant be, but it does as I have heard said before help fill in the gaps between known sites, help to discover previously unknown sites, and provide useful and sometimes unrealised information in its own right.

Once, both 'sides' have finally reached an understanding of the usefulness and parameters of which both 'disciplines' are engaged in then perhaps we can then at last look forward to a mutually beneficial existance.

www.detector-distribution.co.uk

If a job is worth doing, then its worth doing it tomorrow!

Homer (Simpson)

[BAJR Host]

Very very intersting post... I especially liked the paragraphs

quote:Metal Detecting is not archaeology, should not be dictated too by archaeology, although we do have common interests.

Trying to preach artchaeological disciplines to a detectorist is in the main the same as trying to do the same to say an historian... there are areas of overlap, but they by nature have to function differently, all are to a greater or lesser or even different degree contibrute to the whole, which is our common heritage.

Metal detecting as I have said, is not about detecting and then digging into the undisturbed archaeology, but is about finding disturbed artefacts, and should be at all times about recording all the information these finds can supply.


"No job worth doing was ever done on time or under budget.."
Khufu

[Steve-B]

Thanks, this really is the way I perceive the hobby and its relationship with archaeology.

It will be interesting if Alfie could expand more on his opinions of the hoby as whole based on the above posts.

David is there any chance of seeing the revised rally report that will be sent to the organisations mentioned.


www.detector-distribution.co.uk

If a job is worth doing, then its worth doing it tomorrow!

Homer (Simpson)

[garybrun]

I look forward to Alfies expancion on the debate too.

http://www.ukdfd.co.uk
Recording OUR heritage for future generations.

[DAZ 1900]

Hi all,

Firstly let me say how refreshing it is to see civilised debate! well done to all! As Alfie has shared his thoughts and posed an honest Question, i shall give my honest answer as this is how Debate should be!

As a Detectorist i am enthusiastic to the point of obsession in my Quest to learn about the past! However i have often wondered how i would react if i found a site of importance and was subsequently told by Archaeology that i could not detect there anymore due to the protocols of Heritage Management! as an avid recorder of finds and findspot locations with my local SMR would i feel betrayed by the very people who i record with? the answer would have probably been YES! were it not for "involvement" on the various Detecting and Archaeological fora ( i use this term rather loosely as i spend more time reading than i do posting! thus going largely unnoticed on the forums:D).But by doing this and taking time to read,digest and understand the thoughts and ideas of both the posts and the poster i now see it from both sides of the debate, So now i would say NO! i would not have a problem with management of a site of importance if it indeed could be proven, but it would hurt like hell as both Land and Landowner's trust is quite often difficult to come by, but i would understand that it would be in the best interest of the Resource which is what both Camps have at heart.

Cheers!

D

[garybrun]

Thanks for that D.
I understand exactly where you are coming from.

http://www.ukdfd.co.uk
Recording OUR heritage for future generations.

[garybrun]

Alfie... are you still there?????!!! HELLO! :)

http://www.ukdfd.co.uk
Recording OUR heritage for future generations.