Small cross Forum Warning

[BAJR Host]

Applies to everyone ... myself included.

Too often we can appear on several forums... what we say on one, may not be how we act on another.

I have just seen and am concerned about something I saw on the Heritage Action website Forum

Joking apart... a detectorist (Kevmar) was asked to change his avatar (picture) and did so to a picture of Andy from Little Britain with the signiture - Now I look the part,take me to your trench.


This was the response .. which might be seen as slightly over-reaction..



quote:I am disturbed by the use of an avatar showing the wheelchair-bound Andy from the BBC series Little Britain and references to "trenches" in your signature. It seems to me that you are for some reason best known to yourself poking fun at the mass murder of disabled people in the camps of Nazi Germany which was the precursor of the Holocaust, and if so I consider that to be abominable behaviour on a heritage forum (or anywhere else). You deliberately picked an avatar offensive to some HA members (a metal detector one) and when asked to remove it deliberately chose another a hundred times so.

Kevmar, by coming here you claim to be interested in contributing to the work of HA, but your actions so far seem to show that your main purpose is to sow dissent and cause disruption to the running of this Forum. What on earth do you think you are playing at? Moderator

Now lets just make this clear... to everyone... I will look at the activity on other web forums as being as the same as being on here - ie... AUP matters.

Lets get a grip.


"Archaeology is the search for fact. Not truth."
Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade

[Paul Barford]

quote:Originally posted by BAJR Host

Now lets just make this clear... to everyone... I will look at the activity on other web forums as being as the same as being on here - ie... AUP matters.

Sorry, can you be more specific, is that comment aimed at me or Kevmar? In other words, who is being warned / shamed here about what? and why is this announcemenmt just in "understanding metal detecting" please?(and while we are at it, why are you posting my entire posts from one Forum to another taking it out of context and without specifically explaining what your problem is with it?).

It is not by any means "overreaction" to equate "trenches" with mass burials, especially with the news of the new mass graves discoveries in the Ukraine so fresh. I happen to regard Holocaust issues very seriously. You may know I worked on Auschwitz some years back and among other things talked with people whose families were destroyed there and sadly some of those individuals that glorify the deeds of the Third Reich and those who deny any wrong doing went on - sickening.

Neither do I find anything "funny" in poking fun at disabled people (even fictional ones in a poor taste "comedy" show). That is my opinion and I have a right to it. Especially on ANOTHER FORUM. Nota bene, the offensive avatar and signature still have not been changed, and I understand that Forum is now thinking of imposing restrictions on avatar use on its other members because of one person's gross insensitivity.

I wonder at your implied threat (if I understand your "warning" correctly) to apply YOUR AUP to the words and deeds of others elsewhere. I must admit that its the first time I have ever met such a thing. I certainly do not recall ever entering into a binding agreement coming on this Forum which gives you a proprietry right to judge still less sanction our behaviour outside BAJR. There is nothing about it in the BAJR AUP that I can see.

Just so we dont go in fear of putting a foot wrong in future dealings with the outside world, could you be a bit more specific please about what you had in mind writing that. In particular, what makes you apparently feel you have some kind of responsibility for (and can sanction here) what members of this Forum write on other completely separate forums? Why do you not feel that any transgressions can be left up to the moderators of that Form to deal with as they see fit?

Paul Barford

[Steve-B]

Hosty I have to say, that I persoanlly am not offended by the picture of Andy in the wheelchair... get a grip, its just a character from one of Briatins most popular comedy shows.

One of the stars of which has recently proven himself to be a'real' person behind the persona... I mean David Walliams and his heroic swimming of the English channel for charity.

As to the association with the nazis... where the heck did that come from, I gues not being an 'ologist' I was just too dumb to read that into it.

I have to say, its a bit sad when all else is lost to pick a fight over something as mundane as a forum avatar...

www.detector-distribution.co.uk

[Paul Barford]

quote:Originally posted by Steve-B

As to the association with the nazis... where the heck did that come from, I gues not being an 'ologist' I was just too dumb to read that into it.

Possibly just poorly informed. Lest we forget Steve:
http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/holocaust/h-euthanasia.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-4_Euthanasia_Program

http://www.baycrest.org/Winter%202002/article4.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1942335.stm

http://www.holocaust-history.org/lifton/LiftonT165.shtml
large trenches had to be dug to burn the corpses. Here the wood was sprayed with petroleum. Into these trenches the corpses were thrown. Often living children and adults were thrown into the burning trenches. These poor ones died a terrible death by burning. The necessary oil and fats for the burning were obtained partly from the corpses of the gassed in order to save petroleum.

and so on Steve. There is much more on it. I will spare you the accounts of the prisoners who a few years later in the face of the advance of the Red Army had to dig up the part burnt and half rotted corpses with their bare hands to burn them and scatter the ashes before themselves being killed so the evidence of Nazi genocide would be destroyed...

Please read it and reflect. Take some time and visit one of the camps where this happened and reflect. Perhaps then you will not be so oblivious to the associations.

And as for associations with the Nazis, it was not a member of my milieu who called Heritage Action (whose Forum we are for some reason discussing here) "Brownshirts".

But this is deflecting attention from the curious "Cross Forum Warning" that was posted here, I would like to hear more about that please. Thank you.

Paul Barford

[Steve-B]

I dont need to read it... of course it happened, but why and how is that relevant to Kevs avatar? did he make reference to these attrocities.

BTW, the brownshirts reference was apologised for and the apology was acccpeted, get over it Paul.



www.detector-distribution.co.uk

[BAJR Host]

Last word on the subject was to not actually specify anyone... it was to ensure that people behave in sensible ways no matter which forum they are on.

I see only once again an amazing confrontation appearing... where the reasonable reaction would be to say... nope thats fine.. I agree - lets move on.

Please let this be the end of it..



"Archaeology is the search for fact. Not truth."
Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade

[Paul Barford]

quote:Originally posted by BAJR Host

Last word on the subject was to not actually specify anyone... it was to ensure that people behave in sensible ways no matter which forum they are on. I see only once again an amazing confrontation appearing... where the reasonable reaction would be to say... nope thats fine.. I agree - lets move on. Please let this be the end of it.. Sorry David, you cant leave this hanging in the air. You not only specified two people by name, but you lifted the entire of one of their posts from another Forum and posted it here for Steve to discuss out of context. Surely how I, Kevmar or anyone else behaves on another forum is absolutely no responsibility of the moderator of THIS forum. And yet you write:
quote:Now lets just make this clear... to everyone... I will look at the activity on other web forums as being as the same as being on here - ie... AUP matters.Because "I will look at the activity on other web forums as being the same on here" is FAR from "clear". You mean what we write on other Forums will be treated for some reason as if it were posted here? Precisely what do you mean? You have issued a "warning" about "other web forums", can you now explain it properly please?

Paul Barford

[BAJR Host]

Only specified on person by name.

It is an example

Last word...

"Archaeology is the search for fact. Not truth."
Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade

[Steve-B]

quote:but you lifted the entire of one of their posts from another Forum and posted it here for Steve to discuss out of context.


Asctually you initiated the out of context discussion... I was already aware of the debate on the other forum.

But as usual you have to slip in the odd little untruth.

www.detector-distribution.co.uk

[Paul Barford]

-

[john1504]

Some of the comments here have possibilities of becoming very interesting discussions....ignoring the usual personality clashes....and may be able to help me in my own research.

I'm aware David that this is probably not the place to start any such discussion off, so I would be grateful if you could move this post to the relevant section.

Paul has made a point of mentioning the 'Holocaust' and 'Genocide'. I would like to know what he means by these terms.

As a background to where I'm going with this, I'd like to inform any interested party that I was in the Army for a few years, part of which was spent detached to the UN. During that time, I spent a short period in Israel where, to my disgust, I learned how the Israelis are treating the Palestinians. Up until that point I was fully sympathetic with Israel and believed in it's right to exist.

Since then, many events have occured (one of which was mentioned on this Forum) that have given rise to many more questions - some of which concern the Israeli claim to Palestine.

During my own reseach I've been amazed at the lack of 'evidence' for some of the claims that have been made on behalf of Israel, including their aparent claim to Auschwitz as 'their' memorial....I refer to the diplomatic incident caused by Poland wishing to put a memorial up to their people murdered in the camp.... Perhaps Paul, or someone else, can shed some light on these issues for me.

[Paul Barford]

Well, I could, I was actually involved with the discussions over the monument and the ICOMOS group looking into some of the problems. But really am a bit miffed by this whole thread, because its nothing to do with BAJR, we never really learnt what David was on about and he deleted my post requesting again for him to tell us. So I really would prefer to wait for a proper answer to the first question before dodging off on a tangent.
Auschwitz and the Holocaust are not really British archaeology though are they? (But then neither is this thread). You are NOT I hoping to get us here into one of those 'Holocaust denial' type discussions, you really would not want to start me on those.

Paul Barford

[Steve-B]

quote:Auschwitz and the Holocaust are not really British archaeology though are they?

About as British as the Polish gold fever example you provided earlier Paul... please try to remain consistant on what you feel is and isnt applicable to the debates.

www.detector-distribution.co.uk

[john1504]

quote:Originally posted by Paul Barford

Auschwitz and the Holocaust are not really British archaeology though are they?

Perhaps not British, Paul, but then again, it was the British who invented the concept of concentration camps (Boer War). The point I make in all this is, by no means, a denial of anything.
Fact - Many thousands of people were murdered in these camps.
Fact - Not all of them (as some people would have us believe) were Jews.

However, try as I might, I can find no lists of the victims - only estimated numbers, and those estimates are based on hearsay ie someone hadn't seen their neighbour since he/she was taken away from the ghetto.....which is why I have problems with the research. I can look at various web sites (both pro and anti) but all I read on them is either 'estimates' or personal experiences (but usually second or third hand).

If someone could point me in the direction of (neutral) sites or locations where I can see or get copies of the original documents I would be most grateful.

[Paul Barford]

quote:Not all of them (as some people would have us believe) were Jews That is an oversimplification, the information about which groups died in the camps has always been freely available, whether people care to avail themselves of it to be better informed is another matter.
There are many books published since the 1940s with these details, from the inception of the museum in Auschwitz I, individual blocks have been 'national halls' to commemorate the various groups that were taken there, the guidebooks show which bits of Birkenau were for Gypsies, Hungarians and so on.
http://members.aol.com/MrHatLRMS/holocaust.html#NON

And perhaps we should recognise that the people we label as "Jews" were also Poles, Hungarians etc. (there was in modern times no Jewish 'nation' before the creation of Israel). In Polish Jewry before the Nazi Occupation there was a pretty good symbiosis between Poles and Jews in town and country.

But the first to go (it started before the camps) were the handicapped and it is no "overreaction" to feel disquiet on another Forum when somebody seems to be making jokes of disabled people being taken to the "trenches". In Auschwitz you can see today the piles of crutches, artificial legs and wheelchairs. Perhaps David first go there and see, touch and smell it before you judge what is "overreaction".


quote: However, try as I might, I can find no lists of the victims - only estimated numbers, and those estimates are based on hearsay well what do you expect? The Nazis were in no hurry to make a full record of their crimes, still less let it fall into the hands of the Allies. They went to extraordinary lengths to try to obliterate all (archaeological even) traces of the camps in the east and all documentation of the rest. In the ghettos people were rounded up and loaded on trains, there was a quota of prisoners for each trainload, when it got to the destination those who survived the atrocious conditions in the cattle trucks were then 'selected', an arbitrary process. Only those who went into the work camps were registered, the rest went straight to their deaths uncounted. Reconstructing who died when (or even where) in the period 1939-45 is a hugely complex process (that actually applies to soldiers in the German army on the Eastern Front too). The International Red Cross is still working on it for example in the case of normal civilians whose families got separated and scattered. Work is still going on with the surviving camp records and those estimates are being made more accurate as new evidence comes to light.

You will have to use your own critical facilities to determine which websites and books are "neutral" (can there be such a thing in such issues?), the Nizkor project includes copies of the original documents for example - as do the Holocaust denial sites of course.

Steve, your question was, I understood, about collecting archaeological artefacts in general, I wanted to use two examples (IMO quite thought-provoking ones) to answer it. Your choice.
(who used the term 'gold fever'?)

Paul Barford

[BAJR Host]

Yep... I'm not sure where this is going.

I to have worked in both Jordan, PAlaestine and visited Israel. Good and bad everywhere.. wrong and right on all sides. People... all people have a right to live in a non-fear enviroment.

As to numbers... it does not matter... how many or who... it only matters that it happened.

"No job worth doing was ever done on time or under budget.."
Khufu

[Paul Barford]

quote:Originally posted by BAJR Host

As to numbers... it does not matter... how many or who... it only matters that it happened I disagree entirely, its not enough (in anything, but this particularly) just to turn your back on the details and say its enough to know "it happened". Because that kind of superficiality just opens the door for those conspiracy theorists who with a few sleight of the hand tricks will want to show you "it did not happen". These people can only prevail when the public are not armed with a fuller grasp of the details and context and not just some vague knowledge and a few glib platitudes. This is why these issues need bringing out into the open and not just dismissed as "overeaction".

And I certainly think it DOES matter "who", like for example a member of my wife's family who died in Auschwitz-Birkenau. It matters a great deal to the families not only who and why and how it came to this and that people do not just turn their backs dismissively like you just did.

Paul Barford
.

[BAJR Host]

Well of course it does.. please do understand that this is not a trite statement..

People.... real people died and suffered under a brutal regime...

This is not the place for arguement... Of course it matter to individuals, the concept I was trying to get across is not one of who suffered the most... it is one of a tradgedy where many many people, humans, loved ones, died... still die this must be remembered.

I am more concerned about where this request came from.. and would request john pm s me to explain further.

"No job worth doing was ever done on time or under budget.."
Khufu

[Paul Barford]

quote:[I am more concerned about where this request came from.. It "came" from somebody lifting one of my posts from a separate Forum and for some reason better known to themselves posting it here, criticising my comments on that other Forum as "overreaction" and with some unclear "warning" which was never satisfactorily explained. That's why this topic ended up being discussed on BAJR, while the reasons for bringing my post here were never clarified.

.

[BAJR Host]

I have clarified it to you now in a pm... I am glad you have no further comment about me dismissively turning my back on ssuch an event. That was very hurtful and uncalled for.

"No job worth doing was ever done on time or under budget.."
Khufu

[Steve-B]

This whole thread is absolutely ridiculous.

It is irrelevant and I might add that after receiving criticisms from Tom wilson as to myself being rude and siruptive, perhaps he would like to explain how Pauls posts in this thread differ, has he not himself insulted our host?, equally if not more hurtful and uncalled for!!!!

Or do I rate special attention from Tom as I amn a detectorist?



www.detector-distribution.co.uk

If a job is worth doing, then its worth doing it tomorrow!

Homer (Simpson)

[Paul Barford]

and I have just answered your pm. You dismissed my reaction to Kevmar's spiteful and totally uncalled for efforts to disrupt the HA Forum. You ignored my requests to clearify what you meant by dragging this matter over here from another Forum in the first place. That too was hurtful and uncalled for.

But actually the pm did not clarify the issue I asked to be clarified (about the "warning") but why you understood Kevmar's avatar differently to me. I find your proposed explanation of his meaning illogical for the reasons I pointed out and am sticking to my interpretation which better fits the facts and context. But as Steve says, its ridiculous to be discussing what somebody did and wrote on another Forum here, and its a mystery to me why you dragged it over in the first place. Sorry but it is.


.

[BAJR Host]

To bring this to a conclusion... You equated a comment 'Take me to your trenches' and an avatar or Andy from Little Britain as a clear reference to disabled people being killed in concentration camps. I suggest respecfully that you read into it what you wanted to see... a horrible image. I would suggest that perception is all... a popular comedy character who is not actually disabled, and a comment about take me to your leader/trenches. (with the subtext of a detectorist being taken to archaeological trenches) It all depends on how you 'see' things. it all depends on what you want to see.

I have wasted enough of yours and my time on this - you have been unable to apologise for some rather spitefula nd hurtful remarks about everything from my neutrality to my understanding of mass murders in camps, you have even suggested I should visit a camp before making these statement - (you now now I have - to Dachau) - A simple ability to admit that perhaps just once, you have overstepped.. an apology, I and others have been able to say sorry when we realise that we have acted improperly or without thought or feeling...

I would request either an apology or that you leave this forum.

"No job worth doing was ever done on time or under budget.."
Khufu

[Paul Barford]

quote:Originally posted by BAJR Host

I would request either an apology or that you leave this forum.
I thought we were discussing openly an issue you yourself had initiated. As I explained to you in the pm, its interpretation as you suggested simply does not tally. HA is not an archaeology Forum, so I do not see your proposed interpretation is any better than the one that suggested itself to me. As we all know, Kevmar too I guess, humour in discussion groups can be ambiguous unless you are careful. You assume the right to judge here how I interpreted it and how I felt about what it seems to be saying. You presume the role of arbiter of my (our) behaviour on other Forums. You decided it is good netiquestte to take my entire post and repost it here without its author's agreement to open it up to such discussion(we note: in the "understanding metal detecting" section). And you did express - perhaps unintentionally - the attitude that in discussing twentieth century genocide "the numbers and who" are not the key issue when I feel strongly that they are, to all of us. Nevertheless
I am sorry if you found my comments personally hurtful.

Paul Barford

[BAJR Host]

A sorry attached to a catalogue of why you have done nothing wrong is not an apology.

"No job worth doing was ever done on time or under budget.."
Khufu

[Paul Barford]

quote:Originally posted by BAJR Host

A sorry attached to a catalogue of why you have done nothing wrong is not an apology.

"No job worth doing was ever done on time or under budget.."
Khufu
OK, I am sorry if you found my comments hurtful.

[BAJR Host]

Thank you. I am grateful for that. And would like also to take the opportunity to apologise to anyone for comments or views that I may have expressed that will have caused hurt. Some people have been caught up in all this have been unintentionally upset as well.. I apologise to them to - (you know who you are)

Now that we have found our feet again, can we leave this episode behind us, realise we all (and I do mean ALL) got carried away.

Back to business



"No job worth doing was ever done on time or under budget.."
Khufu

[kevmar]

To be honest it's taken a while for this to sink in.
Such a wicked,and very hurtfull thing,with my name on it
is very wrong.
I realy think if an apology is in order,Mr Barford certainly owes it to me.
I am so outraged that he can TRY to twist
what I said,and what my avatar was about,is beyond belief.
I wasn't going to even justify this whole thing
with a reply but felt i had to.
As for being spitefull,and disrupting HA forum,I thought about
that,and could see my flavour of topic wasn't welcomed,so
respectfully asked the moderator to remove my account.
As for linking me to poking fun,at the Hellish behaviour of monsters
(not humans) during the hollocaust is unforgivable.
I would put my life on the line,that my avatar and signature had nothing
do do with this,where on earth did that one come from?
My character has been assasinated,Iv'e been publicly humiliated ,and I feel let down
and basicly a victim of internet bullying for once (the real thing).
If an apology isn't forthcoming,
I will delete my accounts form ALL the web forums I'm part of,
and seek further advice as to what to do.
This is far more serious,then arguning over a detector signal
and discussing a find etc.
That's all I am willing to say.
Kevin.

[Steve-B]

I agree Kev, Paul has not once adequetely explained how he got from a British comdey character (your avatar) to his vile accusations aimed at you in respect of the holocaust.





www.detector-distribution.co.uk

If a job is worth doing, then its worth doing it tomorrow!

Homer (Simpson)

[BAJR Host]

Can I remind people once and for all

Now that we have found our feet again, can we leave this episode behind us, realise we all (and I do mean ALL) got carried away.

Back to business

If you wish to continue this (and that is your perogative) please do it off list... I would prefer that we lose nobody. And my apologies will stand for everyone. This is in part my fault and as such, I must take part of the blame. SO can we call a halt to this.... at least online

"No job worth doing was ever done on time or under budget.."
Khufu