agenda for bajr conference

[troll]

Right.This conference will be loud. Tiz time to weigh things in the balance and push for change.My input will be on two main fronts;
1.An overhaul of the current state of play where the cheapest crud wins the day and standards are both optional and, un-enforced.
2.The current disgusting and illegal standard of Health and Safety in British archaeology.

Wot`s yours?

[Cautionary Tale]

and..
3. Public dissemination (good god i need a dictionary) - after all, we can change the pay and make the sites safe, but if no one apart from the Curator reads or indeed knows about the report whats it all for?

[troll]

profit perhaps?:DThankyou Barnsey-agree wholeheartedly.

[Cautionary Tale]

This is possibly linked in with your '1' Troll, but I think there does need to be some sort of debate as to the value of IFA recommended wages if A: there aren't (can't be?) enforced, B: they're set so low that nobody can afford to live on them and C: and this depresses me the most, companies which paid more than the minimum wage appeared by the IFA's figures to have lowered their wages to fall in line with the minimum wage during its early period (I am open to challenge on the last point with regard to recent changes as my figures are out of date and the issue is raised to get clarification of recent trends).
Is there a legal type out there who could spread a little light on the issue of if industry can effectively set minimum wages without falling foul of legistlation i'd be curious. I have my doubts along the lines of monopoly law etc, but i'd like to know the specifics.

[kevin wooldridge]

quote:Originally posted by Barnesy

I think there does need to be some sort of debate as to the value of IFA recommended wages

I have some figures which may help to flesh out this debate. Based upon BAJR adverts in the last 6 months:

Average wage advertised:

Experienced 'digger': £277 pw
Supervisor: £311 pw
Project Officer: £344 pw

The above figures are based upon all advertisers. If IFA Registered Archaeological Organisations and non-RAOs are compared there is a slight divergence:

Average wage advertised by IFA RAO:

Experienced 'digger': £277 pw
Supervisor: £306 pw
Project Officer: £332 pw


Average wage advertised by non RAO:

Experienced 'digger': £277 pw
Supervisor: £316 pw
Project Officer: £355 pw

Which kind of suggests that non-RAOs pay slightly more than IFA 'approved' bodies.


More telling figures as to the state of the profession are the following:

Percentage of employers advertising posts with salaries below average archaeological wage:

Experienced 'digger': 60%
Supervisor: 75%
Project Officer: 33%

and

Percentage of RAOs advertising posts with salaries below average archaeological wage:

Experienced 'digger': 63%
Supervisor: 66%
Project Officer: 50%

[BAJR Host]

excellent figures...

though I must ask where the below average arch wage comes from..

However... good start.

Lets keep the Conference Focused and simple..

3 Subjects (which in themselves are huge)

are we looking at 3 Discussions with seperate solution seminars?

Another day another WSI…

[kevin wooldridge]

[quote) I must ask where the below average arch wage comes from
[/quote]

Apologies, I should have added a note that the 'average wage' was based upon the mean of BAJR advertised posts. I think the point I was trying to make was that a relatively few 'high' paying advertisers sit atop a ziggerat of employers paying considerably less than the average.

My own personal solution to this problem would be that the IFA raise its recommended pay levels for RAOs. I don't think it would be too much to ask of RAOs to pay a minimum of £277pw to their experienced digging staff, £311pw to supervisors and £344pw to PO's. My figures seem to suggest that if RAO's took the lead, non-RAO's could follow and perhaps even exceed these levels.

I also believe that the IFA should set a target for reasonable increases in their recommended levels to create a 'dignity' wage threshold for archaeologists. My suggestion if asked, would be that this should be at least 3.7% a year, enabling the £300pw minimum 'digging' wage to be achieved by 2007/8 and £360pw by 2012/13. For supervisors the minimum recommendation would raise to £330pw by 2007/8 and £410pw by 2012/13. For POs the minimum would raise to £370pw by 2007/8 and £440pw by 2012/13.

This could of course only apply to IFA RAO's and could not be applied across the board. I don't know that it would harm the IFA's image however if it were widely advertised that the IFA endorsed better wages and would not tolerate organisations that paid below the level of an industry defined 'dignity' wage.

[troll]

Not a clever response I know but-I was earning far more than an experienced "digger" during the 80s as a bin man.

[Cautionary Tale]

Even later than that, I earnt more in 95 than I did in 99 when a graduated as a digger }:). I shall be persuing the legal aspect with a legal type I know shortly, but I do think this will be the main obstacle.

[troll]

C`mon you lot, will be a very short conference with whats on offer so far.All flavours of heritage types welcome-get involved!:D

[Cautionary Tale]

I think No. 4 should be a debate on the need to have the IFA (or other) chartered to give it some legal weight. Emphasis in the debate on what the organisation should be.

(I really have worked in the field)

[rachstebbs]

Well its probably not what you have in mind, but I'm willing to put a students view of a career in archaeology across. happy to collaborate with any other students or very recent graduates out there:D I think in the next few years there is going to be a massive increase in arch graduates going into commercial work and yet after being on placement I've realised my degree doesn't teach the simple practical stuff you need to know. could get quite interesting...

[Cautionary Tale]

I think thats precisely what needs discussing (have a look around the BAJR forum). Seek out others and brainstorm :D

(I really have worked in the field)

[BAJR Host]

Well here is a debate to have at the conference...

a full debate.. with arguements and counter arguements

What should be the real level pay rates...

you decide... and back it up with why and how it works... and I will move in a way that reflects what is expected..

it has to be a well researched and backed arguement though... as the next pay levels come in on the 1st of April each year.. and I have to justify ... So theres soemthing worth debating.. What are you really worth!

Another day another WSI…

[troll]

Rachstebbs-Blinding! Have met a few newbies recently and already they have an awful lot to say! Think your collaboration idea is a cracker and I can`t wait! Don`t forget-you guys and girls are the future of British archaeology......:D

[sniper]

was having a chat with a volunteer at work this morning, trying to get some experience before she even goes to Uni. She did look shocked when I told her that I came out of Uni with no idea of how to do my job. Maybe if we could get a survey done, or something, on people's expectations of what an archaeology course should include, before they have been to uni and been faced with the reality...

++ i spend my days rummaging around in dead people ++

[rachstebbs]

Well then email me or post a reply if you wanna work with me, any input would be welcomed.

[Louloubelle]

I had a rather worrying conversation with an undergraduate at college the other day, who told me he wanted to go into field work after he graduated in June. I asked him how much experience he had, and he looked non plussed.
I did the same degree many moons ago, and we all ended up with 60 days field experience, which is hopeless if you want a job when you graduate - The industry will end up with clueless dippos like what I was unless students can afford to do more voluntary work in holidays etc. Realistically though, most students are having to do paid work thanks to financial hardship. Its great some colleges are providing a year work experience, but lobbying universities to provide more work experience for their students could be a good move forward.
On the odd occasion I feel quite bitter that I am having to pay a fortune for this MA to learn the stuff I should have been taught years ago.
So where these ramblings are going is - Can the BAJR conference look at the issue of the next generation of students, and whether anything practical can be done to try and influence things?:)

[the invisible man]

60 days equals 12 weeks - way above the norm for fieldwork at a British university! We discussed this a while ago, and the amount of fielwork required by unis for your first degree tends to vary between zero and four weeks, with one or two at 6 weeks. Yours (UCL???) at 12 weeks is a shining example, a beacon of light.

Today, Bradford. Tomorrow, well, Bradford probably.

[Louloubelle]

Even at that beacon of light it still only adds up to 3 months. Hardly a foot in the door!

[kevin wooldridge]

quote:Originally posted by BAJR Host
What should be the real level pay rates...you decide... and back it up with why and how it works... and I will move in a way that reflects what is expected..it has to be a well researched and backed arguement though... as the next pay levels come in on the 1st of April each year.. and I have to justify ... So theres soemthing worth debating.. What are you really worth!

I have just finished writing a piece for the next Diggers Forum newsletter on what the current average advertised wage of the lowest grade archaeologist, supervisor and project officer is, why the lowest archaeological salary should be £300 per week, and how the IFA can help to raise that to a minimum of £360 per week by 2012. If the DF decide not to use this (or the next newsletter is a very long time coming out), I am happy to make text available to BAJR Baiters.

[judy]

Ok , I have worked as a part time sales advisor for more than £277 per week.
What are you talking about, we spend 3 years studying some of us went on to do masters (not necessarily completed) and diploma after that, we also have to add our own experience if worked on other fields (good team players and so on, as I could see from some of the posts on this site there are people who got jobs and they don’t even deserve to have them, and some like me sitting at home all day cooking soups, and varnishing their nails).
And is this £277 before or after tax, why don’t we look at how much a newly graduated engineer earns and take it from there? They do similar work to us, don’t they? Why look at BAJAR job site it is wrong to start with as far as pay package concerns I mean. (out with the old and in with the new this is my motto…. Revolution is always the answer). To be continued…

When is the conference and where?

[the invisible man]

You know what I'm going to say don't you...............:)

Today, Bradford. Tomorrow, well, Bradford probably.

[judy]

No, What?

[1man1desk]

Back from hols, just catching up on developments over the last couple of weeks.

This thread seems to have gone off on a bit of a tangent. Looks like we have the following topics suggested so far (paraphrased from Troll and others):

1. The relationship between commercial competition and archaeological standards;
2. Health and Safety standards;
3. Public dissemination of archaeological results;
4. Pay levels - how high, how regulated;
5. Chartered or other recognised status for IFA to give it more teeth;
6. Students' perspective on careers, especially practical training and experience levels gained by graduation time.

I have previously suggested, on another thread, the following:

7. The roles of, and relationships between, the various branches of the profession, which (thinking in terms of interest-groups) I would now probably define as follows:
- field unit staff (non-management)
- field unit management
- specialists
- curators
- consultants
- academic teaching and research staff
- students

I have not included amateur groups here because we are talking about the profession. I am particularly interested in the roles of the parties involved in development-led archaeology and would be happy to contribute in that area.

If each of the 7 main topics equals a full session, that sounds like a rather full programme for a first conference, so we may need to combine and/or prioritise.



1man1desk

to let, fully furnished

[troll]

1man1desk-kin superb sire! Sounds like a recipe to me.Getting closer to designing leaflets/posters and fliers by the day.....
Judy, I wish I could send you a cyber hug mate. Of course you`re absolutely right. The 2006 conference will be the first chance we will all have had to get together and do something positive after years of being ignored by the puppeteers.Trust me-we all know where you`re coming from.Collectively, we can change things.Stick with us mate, this conference will be the start of something better.I promise.By the way-am sending you a huge cuddle (and a baseball bat to swing about-just don`t hit the telly).xxxxxxxxxxxx:D

[sniper]

does sound like a very good agenda we have coming together. I know I've said it on another thread, but not in here, I will be, if allowed, presenting a paper on issues of treatment of human remains, so that's another to add to the list

++ i spend my days rummaging around in dead people ++

[judy]

I have to start with troll and hug him back thank you and the TV is old any way.B)
I was just touching a bit of the truth. There are lots of subjects we need to bring to light in the coming conference, starting with people who employ wives, girlfriends and daughters and ending with people who don’t know what a ditch is, we have to identify what a field archaeologist is what are they suppose to do rather than what does the dig director wants them to do. I think we need a paper so strong and so articulate people will be talking about it for months afterward (we need photos to show on the day).
We also desperately need regulating body to work on the side of the archaeologist (a union of some sort) with teeth not just for show.
As for 1man 1 desk,
1- Public dissemination of archaeological results; is a very important subject, but I think lately with young archaeologists things have improved a bit, but you are right we need to touch on this subject in the conference.
2- The relationship between commercial competition and archaeological standards, (This is the point of the conference).
all your other points are very good they sound like a recipe for a good soup (forgive me I’m use to cooking now).

People by the station near where I live beg for money like this (20p please). So now I’m going to sign with this.

[judy]

<center>Spare a job Please</center>

[troll]

Snipey-absolutely.A must for the recipe......
Judy-thanx for the hug! Don`t dispair mate-it will happen....:D

[BAJR Host]

Looking good folks....

Well impressed.

Another day another WSI…

[sniper]

I know judy has started a new topic about this, but thought I should refer you all to it, on ethnic minorities in archaeology. Think that should be added to the agenda. What can be done to encourage a more ethnically diverse workforce?

++ i spend my days rummaging around in dead people ++

[Tim]

The fieldwork requirement for the IoA/UCL was 100 working days. Some of that was work on IoA training digs and Primtech. HND at DIHE used to be 10 weeks

Little Tim

[troll]

Rightyho. With many thanx to Sniper, we are close to announcing a potential venue for our very first BAJR conference.Will be having a natter with Mr Hosty on monday and will release details shortly thereafter.Won`t be long and a call for papers/finalising of sessions/timings etc will be on the cards.Posters/flyers/announcements in appropriate publications etc should follow soon.Watch this space peeps........:D:D[:p]