value

[Troll]

In the early to mid-90s in the IFA magazine and at various conferences, the issue of value was debated. The IFA then took someone on to generate value in the eyes of the public by raising it`s profile in the media. That was years ago and I for one, see no results from their quarter. Raising the public perception of the value of archaeology has to be key in any campaign to shake-up the profession. So, let`s have your opinions....How do we raise the percieved value of what we do?[?]

[the invisible man]

Raise the price of it for one thing!

[destroyer]

Alternatively we could all quit, and stop all archaeological provision in the country (including amateurs etc) and then watch the country sink into irreversible physical and cultural decline followed by a total economic collapse and the imposition of martial law. Then people would realise the value of what we do :D

or i am i confusing archaeology with something else...

[Oxbeast]

What!

There has been a massive amount more archaeology in the media over the last few years. I think someone at Southampton is doing a PhD on representation on telly and in newspapers, etc. I saw some results which looked like an exponential curve.

theres plenty of profile, but how that relates to value is a bit more obscure....

I'm not sure how relevant public perception is to value anyway.

[troll]

I agree-there`s plenty of profile at present.Perhaps an ideal opportunity to present a fuller picture. On another slant, if change was ever desired-an informed voting public perception would be fundamental to shift the arse of the Culture minister. What contributions can archaeology make to the communities in which it was found? Is a few A4 sheets hidden away on an smr shelf adequate?

[Digger]

The sad part about this is that it's not the archaeologist (commercial) getting s****d by developers, the government or the public. UK archaeology is all about archaeologists getting SC***D by other archaeologists.

[troll]

Sad but true Digger! On a purely career/employment front- Is`nt it about time that someone wrote guidelines on "grades" of archaeologists working as site assistants? Someone on their first day with a glistening wet degree is paid the same as someone with years of experience and a plethora of diverse skills under their belt. I for one am sick of self-indulgent "Institutions" gauging my value when they clearly don`t possess the skills themselves.What is a site assistant? What skills are expected? Are all site assistants seen as simple-minded mud-monkies? How do we place value upon what we do?[?]
p.s-On the "raise the prices"front- we all go self employed and charge what we`re worth based on a graded site assistant scale? They pay us what we`re worth or they can do the job themselves (would be amusing to watch from the trench-edge don`t ya think?[:p]

[the invisible man]

Your PS doesn't sound such a bad idea Troll. If the majority of site staff are employed on fixed short term contracts, no sick/holiday pay, then you're halfway there anyway and you might as well cop for the tax benefits. Many construction personnel work on the basis too of course.

This is likely to lead to the emergence of the archaeological staff agency (hi BAJR!) as happens in other walks of life. The more experienced people would get a higher rate.

The downside is that it can be hard to break out of the cycle - so what would be different? Also, in my other life, we reckoned that about 1 in 10 contract staff were worth the air they breath - but the situation would be different I think.

Hmm, worth thinking about!

[sniper]

well, if we went self employed it would have to be en masse. I have been thinking about it for a while, but I am still at that stage in my career as an osteo where I have plenty of experience, but there are people out there with more and who are published and much better known and who are freelance. I just don't feel that I would get enough freelance work to keep me going, so I am sticking with a unit for now, where I have managed to be in the right place at the right time and have bodies coming out of my ears. I get paid a hell of a lot less than I should be paid, but I'll get the experience that will let me go freelance and not have to worry about getting work.

++ i spend my days rummaging around in dead people ++

[vulpes]

let me go freelance and not have to worry about getting work.

You may well go freelance one day, and good luck to you! But you will (I promise you) have to worry about getting work, as all freelancers do. Working for a unit may not be amazingly financially rewarding but a salary is a salary, and having a steady fixed income definately has its benefits.

[sniper]

but at the moment I stand no chance of getting any freelance work at all, unless I charge myself out at stupidly low rates, so i will stay at a unit for a while and get stupidly low rates, with a slightly better chance of still having a job next week...

++ i spend my days rummaging around in dead people ++

[troll]

Sniper/Vulpes- Understood.Does`nt this all piss you off? I get the feeling that "the way things are" is acceptable? My point is two-fold; first, the IFA do not have the right to determine the minimum wage for an archaeologist and anyway, based on their figures, our average wage is around £20K so no need to heed the reccommendations of APPAG and two; a high "profile" is not the same as "value". Our high profile is the result of nothing more than entertainment archaeology-is that all archaeology has to offer? Recreating entire cultures from the tiniest pot sherds and providing employment for spoilt (and failed) comedians?:D

[deepdigger]

Well said Troll. Why should we keep that little tosser baldrick in a job when we cant guarentee our own. or are we just here for the publics titilation?
i suspect that i'm only "working" in archaeology to amuse my boss.

deep

[vulpes]

Even if what you say about our average wage level is true. And I find 20K quite a reasonable estimate considering the evidence and my limited understanding of statistics! It is still 5K lower than the national average wage. Troll it seems to me that you are being shocked about a fact which demonstrates that its not just diggers who are underpaid its the supervisors, project officers and managers too!!!! Trust me once you've reached the average for archaeology, you'll then start wondering why you're not average for the UK, or (the holy grail) average for a university graduate.

[troll]

Vulpes-once again-agreed. A couple of points...
The IFA came up with this figure purely because thats waht they came up with after one of their surveys. Unfortunately, those of us who have seen their surveys before did`nt reply for a number of reasons.As a consequence, the survey largely represents the people who are not field archaeologists. In fact, the survey mirrors the responses of archaeological managers. A close look will reveal that on average, most field archaeologists earn around 12-13K pa. I can earn more than that cleaning toilets. Who do the IFA think they are? They are solely responsible for this farce to ensure continuity of their own members golf-club membership. As an aside-I earnt more than the Prime Minister at one point so I know the score. I chose to be a field archaeologist-I did`nt chose the IFA to devalue me or, what I do.:D

[BAJR Host]

So here is a tricky question for you... but an honest answer is appreciated... think about it... drink about it.. even smoke on it... ponder and slurp cold coffee with added soil with your back resting on a portacabin... discuss and argue... but here you go..

These are the minimum levels that are presently held on BAJR (including the 2.95%wage rise that I added in April) and what would you see as a real wage .. attaced to the relevant responsibility grade. ps... I am wondering about who to implement the tricky sums involved in the payment due to a self employed or an employed archaeologist... where one might make 300 a week while another makes £260, but at the end of teh day, when tax NI and pension/holiday/sickness etc is taken into account, then it works out teh same. Any help please email me (I ainn't to good on accounting!)

Level 1: ie TRAINEE ::
£10,872 -£12,642 (min £209.07 per week)
No previous experience required, you will be supervised and trained though you will be expected to carry out tasks under supervision. Suitable for students, etc ::
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Level 2: ie SITE ASSISTANT 1 / TECHNICIAN 1 ::
£13,458 -£14,106 (min £258.80 per week)
Basic knowledge of work required, should be able to carry out work with instruction from Supervisor. Usually the person has up to 3 years experience in chosen field. ::
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Level 3: ie SITE ASSISTANT 2/ TECHNICIAN 2 ::
£14,106-£15,675 (min £263.48 per week)
Experienced in most aspects of the work, though will receive supervision and further instruction from higher levels. Usually the person has over 3 years experience in chosen field. ::

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Level 4: ie SUPERVISOR ::
£15,675 -£17,922 (min £301.44 per week)
Expected to be competent in chosen field and able to instruct others in the basics as well as take responsibility at a low level. Will supervise others to required tasks, but will receive instructions from higher level. ::

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Level 5: ie PROJECT OFFICER / SPECIALIST 1 ::
£17,922-£20,295 (min £344.65 per week)
Expected to be proficient in chosen field and be able to act independently on a single project, with responsibility for the daily running though receiving strategy instruction from higher levels ::

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Level 6: ie PROJECT MANAGER / SPECIALIST 2 ::
£20,295 -£27,411 (min £390.28 per week)
Expected to be an experienced and proficient practitioner in chosen field with ability to make independent decisions, run several projects simultaneously, deal with budgets and leading teams through projects to completion. Example would be an Assistant Curator, Project Manager, Lecturer etc. ::

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Level 7: ie Unit DIRECTOR / PROFESSOR / HIGH LEVEL SPECIALIST ::
G7 = min. £27,411 +
Top of the ladder. Responsibilities for entire Units, Departments, Organisations. Must be able to cary out all aspects of chosen field, lead with confidence and have a standing within Heritage Community. This is a long term commitment. ::


Yeah I know they are still piss poor... but what do you see as a FAIR wage}:)

oh... and before you ask... I pay... 300 pw for diggers rising to 325 if they are any good. and 350 for supervisors.. rising to 375 if they are any good. ;)

[vulpes]

Hmmm... This thread seems to be in danger of becoming an archaeological version of the 4 yorkshiremen sketch. Who do the IFA think they are? Well I've no idea, but if they and their membership are unrepresentative the best way to change this would be to join and get elected to the council.

Abstaining from a survey because of some (unspecified) critical stance, and then criticising that survey for being unrepresentative because it doesn't include you and other similarly principled individuals is bizarre, nonsensical and gave me a good chuckle. Thanks.

Also, I have issues with your definition of 'field archaeologist'. You seem to imply that once one ceases being a site assistant (or supervisor), to become a project officer, manager etc. You stop being a 'Field Archaeologist', and (I suppose) become one of them (the enemy?). Is this perhaps because to qualify as a field archaeologist one has to spend all one's time in fields, green, brown etc? And where does this leave specialists like our friend Sniper? Do you know I almost feel a twinge of guilt for not having dirty knees today.... Although I did on Monday. Answers on a postcard etc....

PS on a related note - the unrepresentative, management biased membership of the IFA were asked if they wanted to rename said body a few years ago, losing the 'field'. The outright failure of this motion surely implies that managers etc. are 'field' archaeologists, or at least they think they are.

I've been thrown out of better places.....

[disheartened]

hmm hmm hmm. well, at least some people are starting to talk about doing something about the conditions we are stuck with, so congrats and thank you.
Value of an individual archaeologist, that's a tricky one though. i've been working in archeology for over 3 years now, i've been a field archaeologist and an office-based one, worked on research and commercial projects, managed a post-ex department, numbered thousands and thousands and thousands of finds, digitised plan after plan, written reports, sat in countless soggy holes, set up site grids, presented my research at European level, and so on and so forth. Varied experience i think anyone would agree. so how does that relate to somebody else who has just spent 3 years digging medieval and post-medieval archaeology? And i don't mean "just" as a derogatory term but once you get to a certain level of digging ability it's tough to move up and learn anything new, whereas I've been lucky enough to move out and do lots of different things. I'm now being paid at a Level 5 rate (lucky me!) but i give myself a personal rating of a level 4...

[BAJR Host]

Quick answer to the which grade question disheartened.. and yes it is good to do something positive - candle in the dark and all that!

The grade is dependant on the responsibility you are personally capable of or willing to take on for that particular job... so if you are digging a site and you are employed as a Digger...then it is the job you are doing or want to do that you are paid for... being able to draw fab pot illustrations does not matter to the responsibility of the job you are being paid for.

Now if while working as a digger you are also asked to draw the pottery - then you should be receiving more money as you are now being not only a level 3 digger but also an illustrator. Complicated! Not half.... that is why I feel the need to formalise this grading... and that shouuld be done in conjunction with the IFA IMHO... even if just to make sure that we do not end up with two (or three or four) separate graded pay/responsibility levels.

A system of categorising the different job types (done by the IFA already) and then linking each grade to each job type.. so that an illustrator definition could include a range from Grades 2-6 and the define what is expected from each of these levels.

I am starting to confuse myself ... bugger[xx(]

[vulpes]

Troll. Some stats, as you seem so fond of them. IFA membership (I 'phoned up and asked) - Corporate grades: PIFA 332 (20%), AIFA 476 (29%), MIFA (51%). Clearly diggers (PIFA?) are under-represented here, but if more joined or if they could (perish the thought) team up with the AIFAs (fraternising with the enemy, perhaps?), maybe some changes could be made as they would then make up a signif. minority!!

The under-representation is also more correctly over-representation as a result of the fact that once someone has joined the IFA they tend to progress upwards in grade and don't leave. It should also be born in mind that many of the MIFAs don't correspond to your golfing management stereotype and have this grade through a combination of longevity and demonstrable responsibility and may even be freelance specialists. With the growing number of RAOs a lot of 'old lags' find themselves joining at MIFA level just to fulfill their organisations entry requirements. It's very easy to sit on the sidelines and snipe at the IFA, but criticising an organisation for faithfully representing its membership strikes me as a bit odd.

Personally speaking I'm quite happy earning what I earn (Level 5 on BAJR scale), knowing what my bosses earn (Level 6) and dreaming about earning the national average one day.... Mind you if I'd been on Tony Blair's whack, I'd probably miss it too. Hope you had the good sense to save.[8D]

[troll]

Oh, to live in a world where everything is so wonderfully simple...Rose-tinted glasses I`m afraid Vulpes.Don`t you think for a moment that "changing things from the inside" is a concept that has already been thought of and, tried before? Could it also be possible that IFA surveys were so naff that I could`nt reveal opinion on here? My apologies Vulpes but-your only real accuracy there was that the IFA do indeed represent their members. Unfortunately, they don`t police them and worse, don`t represent the majority of field archaeologists either.:D Perhaps you would like to come and do my job for a while and give me a chuckle too?

[the invisible man]

We seem to be covering a lot of old ground again! What exactly does "police" mean? I know of no other professional institute that polices its members. There will never be an IFA van screeching up to a site to check the quality of the work, nor will one ever rush out with blue lights flashing in response to a complaint or allegation. That is not what institutes do.

There are some things that even a perfect IFA could not change, or would find very difficult to change - pay for example. Would a mandatory pay scale be legal, feasible or enforcable? Or even desirable?

[vulpes]

My heart bleeds Troll, I used to do 'your job' 5 years ago, when things were similar if not worse. There's nothing particularly noble about wanting to be a site assistant forever, it just shows a regrettable lack of ambition on your part. It is possible to be a field archaeologist and earn more than 12-13K, still get your hands dirty, enjoy what you do and stick with it for 8 years plus. Oh, and I wasn't laughing at your share in our general misfortune if you check carefully.... Well here's the paragraph again:

"Abstaining from a survey because of some (unspecified) critical stance, and then criticising that survey for being unrepresentative because it doesn't include you and other similarly principled individuals is bizarre, nonsensical and gave me a good chuckle. Thanks."

Just to re-reiterate, if you don't participate in a survey it won't represent you, so who are you criticising here. If a survey is unrepresentative because of the apathetic or antipathetic - these are the parties at fault. Not the people who have gone to the trouble of setting up the survey and presenting its results. I give up. :face-topic:

[BAJR Host]

Careful please... I like a good arguement... but it should lead somewhere.

I think also that the PIFA level and even AIFA levels might not represent what is actual grades. (strangley I know a curator who is PIFA and another who is AIFA... add to that several senior management figures who are AIFA and the number of actual diggers might be well under 200 out of 1660 is not whopping by any stretch. But then you are right... without being in the IFA then that number will not go up. So where are we ... as Invisible says... old ground (which is quite a good place for archaeologists)

The reasons for the antipathy for teh IFA have to be addressed - a reason to join other than being told that joining is the only way to make it change... the need to change and the will should be there first to attract people to a fresh and vibrant organisation. The Diggers Group is meeeting in Cambridge soon

23rd April in fact

http://www.archaeologists.net/modules/icontent/index.php?page=151

So if you want to see change.. then it is there.. a seed perhaps... but it welcomes those who are non IFA as well as IFA.. so doors open... [:I]

[Digger]

I wonder if the IFA has ever thought about getting some extra bonus for its members? As we contribute to the heritage of the country how about discounted entry to EH and NT sites? Would offer current members more than a glossy mag and may even encourage new members.

Secondly, I am aware that the IFA recieves only a small number of votes from members during elections. Perhaps through BAJR the elections can be promoted, the candidates scrutinised and voting encouraged. Not voting means that you are happy with the status quo, so not voting and then complaining about who got in is rather pointless.

Not suggesting BAJR go all political but half the time I wouldn't have a clue about any of the candidates. By doing this we could look for candidates who represent the coal face and we CAN then change it from within.

[moey]

I am new to this forum and it's giving me a v. bad opinion of archaeologists (not archaeology). I have been reading for a few days and all I've seen are complaints about the lack of pay and how bad the IFA are. Sure i realise conditions need improving and sick pay should be a given and any organsiation that claims to represnt people will inevitabley have shortcomings (the government for example!!)! Anyway I don't want to sound like I'm attacking people, it's just I haven't heard solutions, it just seems to be griping! Be thankful you're not working in a nike sweatshop for 2p a day! if they even get that much....

[troll]

Vulpes-again, my apologies if I have offended you-not my intention and, don`t give up! Welcome Moey, points taken- however, if all we heard from the shop floor was resounding silence, there would be little room for introspection, evaluation and ultimately change. You are right, plenty of griping going on here. It has to be said that without the griping, change just would`nt be on the table. Most of my colleagues love their job but are not at all fond of the fact that it falls within the realms of commercialism and associated behaviour. You will find that BAJR is really the only place where issues are aired and taken seriously-the IFA would call it "lies and slander". Nowt like a good bitchin sesh to clear the sphincter......:D

[BAJR Host]

Cheers there Troll.... and true... the Diger and BAJR are the palces where you can moan and gripe... but it is turned into a real effort for change. Only by hearing the gripes and groans can something be done.... either the gripes explained or the moans recognised and then acted on. Whether it is pay.... conditions.... policy... Digger Forums.... Disciple..... openess... information... etc etc... it is only by knowing what is wrong that we can work on a solution... so be heartened that people have a place to voice there feelings (right or wrong ) ... they all ave to be known

:D

[troll]

Amen.Huzzah.Choccy bikkies.The mutts nuts. When there aint no none moanin-thats the time to worry cos we is plottin dastardly deeds in the tool-shed.....:D

[deepdigger]

Hold on now boys and girls before we get carried away, self employed people (like me) need to earn more than employed. we don't get the holiday or sickness benefits. and when the job is finished we get laid off til the next one, so dont think that self employed is best, its not always and its not for everyone!!!!!

deep

[sniper]

edit..edit..edit i have been warned

++ i spend my days rummaging around in dead people ++

[deepdigger]

now stop that fidgeting sniper or we'll make you join the ifa!

deep