Spot Listing and spot scheduling

[drpeterwardle]

Is the current system for spot listing adequate and can it act quickly enough? Should there be a similar process for ancient monuments?

I am not at liberty to discuss the context of the question - minor legal issues (not client confidentiality) but I would be interested in knowing BAJRers views.

Best wishes
Peter
[8D]

[troll]

Not sure sir-please define "spot listing". From my experience, listing and scheduling does not protect monuments or buildings from commercial developers anyway....

[drpeterwardle]

Spot listing is the process by which a building is listed quickly and on individual basis rather than as part of a survey.

Peter

[troll]

Thank you Dr Pete.Does spot listing embue the building in question with equal protection to those that have gone through the full process? How often does "spot listing" take place?Would be nice to be able to do the same for some of the exquisite archaeology I`ve seen dissapear under a jcb!:D

[troll]

Thank you Dr Pete.Does spot listing embue the building in question with equal protection to those that have gone through the full process? How often does "spot listing" take place?Would be nice to be able to do the same for some of the exquisite archaeology I`ve seen dissapear under a jcb!:D

[drpeterwardle]

In short

Yes

and often sufficiently quickly under 2 weeks

Peter

[Hugh]

I've been told by fairly reliable sources that EH can push through a scheduling quickly in order to protect archaeological remains from development, and I'm fairly sure I know of a couple of examples (will check next time I talk to the curator involved), however it can involve paying compensation to the developer for stopping the works which means that EH are reluctant to do it.
Spot listing is rare in my experiance, but quick enough when it needs to be.

Where?

[BAJR Host]

very rare indeed... up here in jocko land we often have the problem that HS can't get involved in 'active' planning development. thus only when a site is not in the planning process can it be scheduled, or the scheduling be altered. We had a recent case where the applicant failed to reapply for development, and this gave the locals the chance to apply to HS for increasing teh area of scheduling.. before that... HS could (or would not) do anything

Another day another WSI…

[Hugh]

quote:Originally posted by BAJR Host

very rare indeed... up here in jocko land we often have the problem that HS can't get involved in 'active' planning development. thus only when a site is not in the planning process can it be scheduled, or the scheduling be altered. We had a recent case where the applicant failed to reapply for development, and this gave the locals the chance to apply to HS for increasing teh area of scheduling.. before that... HS could (or would not) do anything

Another day another WSI…


Thinking about it more they were both pre-application. One was discovered by evaluation, the other by Geophysics. The later was announced as a new scheduled site about 5 minutes before the committe was due to meet!

Where?

[1man1desk]

Another problem in Scotland - I gather that because HS is part of the Scottish Executive (rather than a separate quango like EH), they are not allowed to object to schemes proposed (or part-proposed) by the Scottish Executive (such as major road schemes), even where they would object on archaeological grounds if there was a different developer. Their status can also have an undesirable effect on when and how evaluation takes place.

Can anyone in Scotland confirm or deny this? Anyone in HS on BAJR?

1man1desk

to let, fully furnished

[historic building]

I signed up to rant as soon as i saw this topic.

Spot listing, currently, is totally inadequate unless it is accompanied by a building preservation order and the willingness of the relevant borough council to back this up with enforcement.

EH send a notice through to the owner to inform them that the building is under consideration for listing, even when you specifically state that this will put the building under threat. I had been attempting to have a pub listed due to the quality of its interior The building was in a conservation area, so its exterior was protected, but the borough did not issue a buildings preservation order, and the developer was informed of the proposed listing. 20 minutes with a chain saw was all it took to prevent the building being listed.

The most recent changes to the listing proceedure will, in theory, change this as it is proposed that any building suggested for listing will be protected once EH have the request and it is in their system. However there is still nothing to prevent demolitions of buildings which are not listed or are in conservation areas or the removal of potentially important interiors of buildings only in conservation areas.

[the invisible man]

quote:Originally posted by historic building
However there is still nothing to prevent demolitions of buildings which are not listed

Well, there wouldn't be, would there? Other than the planning process of course.

Re. "chainsaws" - the classic example must be the Hoover building.

Today, Bradford. Tomorrow, well, Bradford probably.

[Curator Kid]

quote:
Re. "chainsaws" - the classic example must be the Hoover building.


The Hoover building is still there (and very nice it is too, pity about the Tescos at the back). Are you sure you don't mean the excellent Firestones building on the A4 at Brentford? The facade was demolished over a bank holiday weekend, just prior to its listing being confirmed. :(:(:(

[Alfie]

Just to add; from my experience spot scheduling for ancient monuments is possible but problematic, the local EH inspector was warned that a hitherto unknown but nationally important site was threatend with imminent destruction. He put the legal framework in place, papers drawn up etc came down to see the site, scheduling could have been achieved from start to finish in about 2 weeks. Unfortunately One of the archaeologists on site was asked by the developer who the Inspector was and why he was visiting, and when he was told he machined out the site there and then.

[Sith]

Following on from the last few posts on the subject of listing and scheduling loopholes, is it not also the case that due to HS's role in the planning process in Scotland that monuments under consideration for listing/scheduling are protected from the outset. If this is a correct assessment of the situation, then it is superior to the present set-up in England.

D. Vader
Senior Consultant

Vader Maull & Palpatine
Archaeological Consultants

We are the consultants you are looking for

[drpeterwardle]

just to clarify a couple of points.

Most LPAs regard demolition of buildings as an engineering opertaion and thus need a permission.

How are interior of buildings in conservation areas protected?

Peter

[troll]

A related (just) issue-
there seems to be a worrying trend developing in a certain county...
seems to be a correlation between the time that developers are informed that a building survey needs to be carried out and the mysterious burning down of said building during the hours of darkness shortly thereafter....

[the invisible man]

quote:Originally posted by Curator Kid


quote:
Re. "chainsaws" - the classic example must be the Hoover building.


The Hoover building is still there (and very nice it is too, pity about the Tescos at the back). Are you sure you don't mean the excellent Firestones building on the A4 at Brentford? The facade was demolished over a bank holiday weekend, just prior to its listing being confirmed. :(:(:(


Spot on CK, thank you.[:I]. I could see the perishing thing in my mind's eye... but you know how it is with advancing age... well maybe you don't...

Today, Bradford. Tomorrow, well, Bradford probably.

[mongoose]

Alfie

It may interest you to know that EH no longer schedule nationally important archaeology. In fact according to some senior EH members current policy is not to!!


quote:Originally posted by Alfie

Just to add; from my experience spot scheduling for ancient monuments is possible but problematic, the local EH inspector was warned that a hitherto unknown but nationally important site was threatend with imminent destruction...

[Curator Kid]

I've heard this too Mongoose. One wonders exactly what EH does do half the time these days... :(

[Hugh]

quote:Originally posted by mongoose

Alfie

It may interest you to know that EH no longer schedule nationally important archaeology. In fact according to some senior EH members current policy is not to!!



I was told this by EH, but they went into more detail and explained that it is more a case of there being no new major schemes of scheduling until the government sorts out what it is going to do with the two heritage designations (SM and LB). This is because there may be significant changes to how the system works and they don't want to do anything needless.
I have been told however that if I want anything scheduled as a matter of urgency, they will treat it as they normally would. It is also the case that the previous scheme of sceduling is not complete here so I can get more added to the list of possibilities; I don't know if the same applies elsewhere.

[mongoose]

So it seems that EH are scheduling in some parts of the country. I would be grateful for any further details. The message that I have received in the north is that it is a case of "not any more thank you and good night".


quote:Originally posted by Hugh


quote:Originally posted by mongoose

Alfie

It may interest you to know that EH no longer schedule nationally important archaeology. In fact according to some senior EH members current policy is not to!!



I was told this by EH, but they went into more detail and explained that it is more a case of there being no new major schemes of scheduling until the government sorts out what it is going to do with the two heritage designations (SM and LB). This is because there may be significant changes to how the system works and they don't want to do anything needless.
I have been told however that if I want anything scheduled as a matter of urgency, they will treat it as they normally would. It is also the case that the previous scheme of sceduling is not complete here so I can get more added to the list of possibilities; I don't know if the same applies elsewhere.

[Hugh]

quote:Originally posted by mongoose

So it seems that EH are scheduling in some parts of the country. I would be grateful for any further details. The message that I have received in the north is that it is a case of "not any more thank you and good night".

I will give more info when I formally start the proccess with some of the sites, but as yet no-one has said that they won't add them. It may be another case of parts of EH not knowing what other parts are doing.
As far as it has been explained to me is that they will not do a "programme" of scheduling until some results come out of the heritage review, but they will do individual sites. Maybe that last bit isn't a uniformally held view [?]

[deepdigger]

They did the same with that funky rubber factory in Brynmawr!
GONE!!!

deep