Starting to start out

[Pippyn]

Hi all,

I've done a bit of quick searching through past topics and posts concerning the current recession and have noticed the odd comment about students graduating in the next year or so.

So...I thought I'd start a thread to what people think on it.
Like many people who have posted in this section of the forum I'll be graduating next year and I am under no illusion everything will be better by then.

So what do people think about the fate that befalls archaeology graduates in the near future?

Will graduates with only a few months experience who apply for jobs in field archaeology be first into the bin? Would employers rather take on more experienced diggers who have been unemployed for a while, than supervise graduates? I say this with reference to the gonvernment's monetary incentive to employ people who have been unemployed for the longest period of time. Alternatively would graduate labour be cheaper for employers, knowing they probably won't be staying around long enough to want job security and begin pension schemes?
Or is it worth the extra debt to stay on and do an MA and hope for the best in a couple of years time?

Best Wishes, Pip

[Oxbeast]

Hello Pippyn,

I certianly don;t have all the answers, but here goes...Yes, I think that new graduates are going to have a tough time of it. If experienced people apply for the job, they are more likely to get hired...but the pool may dwindle as people get non archaeological jobs, so you still have a chance of being in the right place at the right time.

Masters: these are money making machines for departments, and look good on the RAE. I'm not saying that they're not good, many are very good, with highly dedicated and experienced staff. Choose very carefully, and don't do human osteology there are very few jobs in this field and lots of masters courses.

[Plautus]

I havn't much to say as i didn't graduate all that long ago myself. So here is my dubious wisdom.

It was difficult to get a start in archaeology before the recession, it is much worse now. (sorry but these are the facts)
Most units don't want to employ diggers until they have at least 6months experience (though now some are asking for a year). The best way to get this experience is either temping for commercial units (if your good you could be taken on), working for your university team, or study placements abroad (GRAMPUS heritage is very good)
Regarding an MA I would say to think very carefully beforehand. It may slightly help you get job but is no substitute for even a couple of months experience in getting your first job.

[Plautus]

oh and a driving licence and a sense of humour are essential. good luck!

[Pippyn]

Plautus - I don't doubt your facts. That's the first thing anyone told me when I said I wanted to go into archaeology, that and that if I did the pay was naff. You do it for the love, right?

Oxbeast - I hear you about the pool dwindling, one of our supervisors from the unit here has just left to join the police force - young family to support.

I got my driving license almost two months ago and have a 4x4 so good times :) So far I've got about four months experience (gained in summers since 2004).
The MA option has purely been as a personal enjoyment in research and learning.

Perhaps another thing would be about how the recession has affected archaeological employment in the North and South. I've heard it's much harder to be employed in the North as there are fewer opportunities for large scale building projects?

[troll]

Greetings from the Med.
I`ve always said that postgrad qualifications are outweighed by field experience every time and unless you can foresee a practical advantage in gaining a Masters-don`t bother getting into debt for it if you are aiming for a career in field archaeology.That said, a masters is a prerequisite for work in the field in Canada-or used to be until recently. Perhaps a Masters in professional archaeology would be worth undertaking till the recession blows out and may just give you an edge over others. In truth though-there really is nothing better than experience to stand you in stead with potential employers.Volunteer if you have to.Beg if you have to! Good luck and the very best of wishes.:face-approve:

..knowledge without action is insanity and action without knowledge is vanity..(imam ghazali,ayyuhal-walad)

[muddyandcold]

Sure it's grim... and prob the worst recession/depression since the 30's but don't forget archaeology has seen these times before, in the 80's (molas laid of 200+ staff) and ninety's!! It could be worse.... you could be a banker facing the chop.... At least as archaeologists we are used to our careers being in ruins ;)

[Pippyn]

Happy 4-day weekend everyone :face-approve:

Troll - That's an interesting point. I hadn't really thought about a masters in practial arcaheology as I was set one in Prehistory/ the Mesolithic. I'll read up on a few courses although I think it'll be distance learning if I persue that route. I agree with your point about practical experience over pieces of paper.

muddy - aye I could be in a worse position. At least at this rate I'll probably get my student loan written off before I find a job that could pay it back!

I hope everyone on the forum hasn't been too badly affected by the recession.

[Pippyn]

Hi all,

Well, after a week of post-exam chillaxing I summoned the courage to do some phoning around the units up here.

2 out of 3 said they've no (paid) work at the minute, but to drop them my CV and they'll keep it on file. :face-approve:

The other just said there was no work, not in a recession, and they'll be none until the recession ends. Fair comment IMO.

Here's to waiting for the phone to ring [xx(]

Pip

Edited for a)spelling b)ranting

[Unitof1]

pippyn wheres around here roughly

[Pippyn]

"Around here" is Durham.

I'm going to try the units down in Lincolnshire tomorrow (near parents).

I'm kicking myself that I didn't have the guts to apply for the Bridlington job :(

[amiable drudge]

whyever not? it doesn't take guts, just a stamp! what could they possibly say that would be worse than "sorry, not this time"?

[monty]

Hey Pippin..whyever not apply.......you have to keep pestering and applying for anything and everything....you've nothing to lose ....and good luck !

[amiable drudge]

i know you've missed the deadline for CV's for this one, but send it in anyway, most units worth their salt keep them on file...and when the nex block of work comes along....
i've heard rumours of some fairly big stuff coming up in...a famous fishing port on the north Lincolnshire coast this summer or so, i think one of the Lincoln-based units got the contract.....

[kevin wooldridge]

Hi Pippyn. Totally understand why applying for jobs early in your career can be a little daunting. It's not so easy as just to say 'send in a CV' 'cos even the most hardened and cynical BAJR corrospondents hurt a little, each and every time we are 'rejected', so it must be truly awful for newcomers to our trade.

That said you could still try ringing Humberside.

Ken Steadman is a very nice man and although he might not have anything to offer at present, he will at least give you the time of day. And who knows, after speaking to him you may feel a bit more confident about posting a CV in the future......



With peace and consolation hath dismist, And calm of mind all passion spent...

[BAJR Host]

and I do have info that more work is coming in that area in the coming months.. so worth the punt... its always worth the punt!

"Entrepreneurs are simply those who understand that there is little difference between obstacle and opportunity and are able to turn both to their advantage."
Niccolo Machiavelli

[Unitof1]

I am a Lincolnshire man, it’s a big county
And these are the recent jobs that have come up

From the Lincolnshire county planning portal
http://eplanning.lincolnshire.gov.uk/ePlanning/




I can find straight away from looking at the applications for the last year that C& G concrete limited have 63 hectors of archaeology to consider
For bigger jobs it is worth looking at the http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/
There always a threat/treat of an oil and gas pipe line coming through

If you give me a less rough location I could try and find out what is going on at a more local district level, I specialise in porch extensions for little old ladies and have been looking for a partner in this form of banditry for years, the last and only was a dowser, straight up I turned my back on him for five seconds after getting out of the car 7am and he was stood there holding a y shaped twig, ahhh Lincolnshire, little old lady loved it.

[guysalkeld]

Hi Pippyn,

The value of volunteering has been mentioned before on BAJR and it might be particularly beneficial to people looking to acquire that vital early experience. The National Trust has over 50 000 volunteers across England, Wales and Northern Ireland and there may be opportunities within the Archaeology Section - not just in excavation but also landscape survey, geophysics, interpretation, building survey etc. Volunteering also gives you an opportunity to see the differing roles within professional archaeology at work, and you may find the experience helps to clarify what you don't want to do. If anyone wants to drop me an email I'll be happy to forward their details to our regional archaeologists.

With best wishes,

Guy

[Unitof1]

Ha ha national trust I have to stop drinking 14% cote du ventoux rosé

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:National_Trust_properties_in_Lincolnshire

[Pippyn]

Hi all,

Thanks for the moral support. I'll start from the top down.

Amiable drudge, monty - I know I gotta keep pestering. It just feels like I know I probably wont get the job so what' the point in applying? But I know that's not how it works. I'll send off my CV now.

Kevin, David - thanks for that. It does feel very daunting. Especially knowing you're up against much more experienced competition at the minute. I'll give Humberside a ring, and I'm checking the BAJR jobs page about 3 times a day!

Unit - a fellow Yellowbelly! (Is it still PC to call each other that?) That famous fishing port Amiable Drudge mentioned is my home town :face-approve: I knew there was a big contract starting but wasn't sure when. I'm keeping my eyes peeled. Thanks for offering to look :D

Guy - I did volunteer for NTS last year up at Ben Lomond, which was loadsa fun. I know it's a good way of bumping up my experience, especially when there's little chance of getting paid.

However I wonder where you draw the line at volunteering and start getting paid. One of the units here asked if it was volunteer or paid work I was after. I got the feeling that if I'd said the former, rather than the latter, I'd be happily trowelling away in a trench today instead of doing the gardening. I was hoping that 4 months experience was enough to start being at least considered for commercial work. But then if there's no chance of that, continuing to volunteer gets more of those vital months under the trowel.

Cheers again everyone
Pip

[Dirty Dave Lincoln]

Pippyn-as you were born within the historic bounds of Lincolnshire (I refuse to acknowledge Humberside ever existed) then please do call yourself a "Yellowbelly"
And be proud of it!!! I certainly am. :face-approve:

[Pippyn]

:D I rang around 4 of the Lincolnshire units yesterday. Nothing at present but got the CV's sent off anyway, and they were all so friendly and sounded like home!

[amiable drudge]

Yay! Wasn't so scary after all, was it? Hope it works out, and this is your first step in a long career* in archaeology!









*but hopefully not 'career' as in 'out-of-control-headlong-dash-to-disaster'.

[amiable drudge]

"C& G concrete limited have 63 hectors of archaeology to consider"

would that be measured in avoirdupois, or troy?

sorry.

[Unitof1]

flesh

Pippyn, when you reach your lowest ebb and I mean lowest because that will be an entry requirment
give me a buzz
I will give a good price

[Pippyn]

Ta Unit. Not too low an ebb yet, just volunteered my services to 10 days in a cave in Plymouth. I get to learn how to dig by torchlight, and do lots of floatation (of soil, hopefully not of me...I'm terrified enough of a dry cave)

I think more volunteering experience will do me good, what Guy said a few posts back about getting experience in different aspects of archaeology. Our local Architectural and Archaeological Society has started running a standing building and landscape survey of a Pele tower which would be cool to try out.

I'm going to be savvy about volunteering though, I could be on site right now for 3 weeks, but I cannot afford pay out £400 for it...that's another great can of worms right there...

[Pippyn]

Well, today I've taken a few more steps to hopefully making myself more employable.

I registered for my third and final year and instead of taking elective modules in what I would find personally interesting (on the research side), I've gone for ones which might be less thrilling, but in the long run could be much more beneficial to working in the field (which is ultimately what I want to do).

What I WANTED to do was take Archaeological Illustration, but as it clashed with another module it make me rethink my strategy. I realised that Illustration is a highly specialised aspect, and speaking to the old 3rd year, is very difficult to do well in. I was also unsure whether I wanted to take it further.

So instead I opted to take Archaeological Surveying. The module verses us in the basics of industry standard programme packages, hence I figured that when I graduate semi-literate in surveying skills, I might be more widely employable than if I had illustrative skills. I've also changed other electives to ones which would complement surveying - one in landscape models which takes a much more theoretical slant on applying interpretations to landscapes .

This way I hope that I'll not just be able to data crunch but also explain/interpret it at the end. So, a good plan?

[chiz]

yep, good plan. Prospective employees with survey experience would in my experience nearly always get a look in before someone who does fancy drawings. You might not get to use it for a while, but make sure they know you've got it. Very useful skill.

[kevin wooldridge]

But....illustration is a very portable skill. Can be done just about anywhere, anytime and for a multitude of purposes (including lots of commercial possibilities if the archaeology work dries up) Whereas archaeological survey courses will never teach you enough or give you sufficient qualification to work outside of archaeology....and lets face it archaeological surveying techniques on most modern survey equipment (Leica 1100, 1200 series and GPS500 etc) can be learntin about 2 hours and competence achieved with a fairly frequent practice.

So I would actually go for the illustration module myself......and maybe a GIS course to give you the background to understand the context in which most modern archaeological digital data capture ends up being processed, analysed and archived....



With peace and consolation hath dismist, And calm of mind all passion spent...

[chiz]

I speak as someone who works partly as an archaeological illustrator and designer, but is essentially a field archaeologist.

Undergrad illustration modules in my day were pretty poor, and from portfolios I've seen lately it seems they haven't changed much. Teaching you very little you wouldn't get from a basic book and a bit of practice, and often of the 'draw one flint, one pot sherd, one piece of rust' school. If there is one that teaches Illustrator, CorelDraw and the like, then great, if not, then forget it.

An archaeological illustration masters is a different matter entirely.

There are unfortunately a lot of rather poor archaeological illustrators out there, if you are a seriously good draughtsperson then it may be worth a shot, but it is often a sidelined job within units which doesn't overlap with other employment possibilities like surveying does. As such whilst it is a good skill to have, it doesn't stand out to employers in archaeology who often have a well-established team, or call on freelancers.
You can just go to a museum and draw some finds and that will be as much as some modules will do for you, and give you a better portfolio than the choice of artefacts you often get given at a uni. Or, better yet, get a job as an illustrator for a research dig at your uni, you may not get paid, but it will generate a portfolio, and you may get some work published which is always good.

Be interested to hear what David C thinks on this, or any other illustrators?

Surveying on the other hand overlaps with other roles within archaeology, and from employers I speak to, survey skills are a real bonus to getting an initial digging job, even if they will never be used. Yep you need to keep up, and yes you can't get an industry survey job, but without a lot of talent you'd also fail to get much non-archaeological illustration work. I agree with Kevin that GIS is also a great module to take, and is the thing of the future so well worth getting an overview in. At undergrad level you're not going to walk out proficient in anything.

Of course all these things are more relevant to a career in archaeology than a module in theoretical approaches to middle bronze age capodocian noodle making iconography. In my opinion!

But whatever, you're thinking in the right way. Good luck

[amiable drudge]

aha!
knew i'd seen this somewhere:

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/localnews/Grimsby39s-secrets-set-to-be.5405919.jp

vague, i know, as all newspaper reports on archaeology are, but it's a bit of proof that things are slowly moving along in the area, and a pointer to people to maybe start getting their cv's polished up and in the post. and that means you, Pip!
as for courses to help you along in your career, well, i'm not exactly au fait with all this modern gee-whizzery, so if The Young People Of Today think that surveying's a good idea, i'd go along with that. is GIS what they make thirty-metre tapes out of these days? and i was just getting used to that new-fangled glass fibre..
and i know you want to really make the most of your time at uni, but maybe don't fall into the trap of selecting only modules that you think will make you employable, do something slightly irrelevant that you find really interesting, because you never know when the call might go out on site "...does anyone recognise this? we think it may be a bronze age capodocian noodle...we're willing to pay consultant rates!"}:)

my first smiley, anywhere ever. i don't know, but somehow i fell slightly...ashamed. i only came here to build a bridge...

[Pippyn]

Ta for the article. I'm coming down tomorrow to visit family for a couple of days so I'll go have a gander. I've already sent my CV to Pre Construct. They were very nice and said they'd keep it one file.

I'd love to do both Illustration and Surveying but unfortunately we're only allowed to do one. My reasoning wasn't solely to do what would make me employable but was greatly influenced my how much I really really REALLY love landscape archaeology(because it means I can indulge my obsession with prehistory whilst secretly having an affair with the medieval...[:I]), and the fact I have a love-hate relationship with drawing.

I have heard Illustrator mentioned, but not sure how integral it is to the module. The exemplars shown in the module handbook were pretty good, but likesay, illustration requires natural flair and if it's not there you can't learn it.
Survey module on the otherhand I know for a fact involves bezzing around the cricket field with a magnetometer, using GIS to survey the car park and playing around with CAD. That way we do the practicalities AND the processing/analysis.

MBA Capodocian noodles? Joking apart there probably IS a module on that...

[Unitof1]

I think that archaeologists should use illustration if they want to communicate with other archaeologists, to high light some point. Unfortunately its mostly taught and used for lookey-likey archaeology where some pet sado who is good at making things look like they are prepared for wood block or copper plating is employed to draw something which another bunch of saddos normally called specialists request to make them selves feel …special. Sorry sorry sorry, or even the habit of taking pictures of sections mostly to prove that an archaeologists was there on site-the only reason that I take them-really sad.

But survey is very good

better get yourself some of hostys superlite weight nails or better still make yourself some survey pins