Identifying CSS,ELS and HLS Land.

[JBM]

Morning All,

I have found the magic site very helpful when obtaining new land to research and detect.

Having stated this fact it has come as a surprise that the sites marked as CSS are not up to date which seems a shame after all the previous work that must have gone into its production.

Going one stage further now we have ELS and HLS to consider andit would be nice if we could have a similiar facility to ensure that we can all act responsibly when out detecting and adding knowledge to local historical records with our FLO staff.

While it is possible of course to ask the farmer/Landwoners for this data they are very often busy getting on with working their farms.

Some farmers have a number of farms with a complete mix of all 3 schemes and it would be so much easier for all concerned if we had access to a national data bank.

Perhaps some of you guys with access to the staff at the heart of the these schemes would be able to have a quiet word in their ears.

Mean while have a nice weekend whatever you are doing.

Jerry Morris.pro WHRADA and active member of SHRADS.

Retired Aerospace manager after many years in the engineering industry..
Locating and preserving historical items for future generations to enjoy.

[BAJR Host]

http://www.magic.gov.uk/default.htm

just to let people follow the link..

a very useful site indeed.

thanks JBM

a pleasure to have yo here by the way.

Another day another WSI…

[m300572]

When the Environmental Stewardship scheme was created, it was based on a new computer system (Genesis) which should have allowed most of the work in setting up and administering agreements to be done electronically. Unfortunately, like most government computer projects Genesis did not do all it was supposed to (in fact it did precious little of that!) and has had a dedicated team of computer experts beating it with sticks o get it to work for the last year. It's getting there, but in the grand scheme of thing processing the paperwork to enable farmers to enter the scheme and get paid on time for their agreements has been the priority. Eventually, I assume, there will be an update on Magic but it may be some time. If in doubt ask the farmer - in general terms there is little prohibition on metal detecting on Entry Level sites (which will be the vast majority) but if the farmer has a Higher Level agreement and there are known archaeological sites on his land (known sites are those which the HERs tell us about when the application is going in) then there may be some restrictions, usually a requirement for more detailed recording of finds from the area of the site. If in doubt contact your regional Defra Historic Environment Advisor - at least on in every government region.

Peter

North West HEA

[JBM]

Thanks Peter,

Much of what you say confirms my personal thoughts.

As CSS sites fall outside the 10 year agreement will they bacome classed as ELS ones?

Jerry.

Retired Aerospace manager after many years in the engineering industry..
Locating and preserving historical items for future generations to enjoy.

[m300572]

What is tending to happen (with both CSS and ESA agreements in the Environmentally Sensitive Areas) is that farmers whose agreements are running out are applying to join ES - there is a tendency for them to apply for Higher Level agreements although not all applications can demonstrate sufficient environmental benefit to enable them to get in to Higher Level. Most applicants will get an Entry Level agreement ( the target is for around 70% of English farmland to be under ELS) with a much smaller number with HLS - these will tend to be concentrated in the ESA areas and some other priority areas -SSSIs, AONBs and designated heritage sites will be targetted to help hit the governments biodiversity targets (amongst others )

Regards

Peter

[Steve-B]

Interesting thread.

Peter is it true to say that since the new schemes were launched there has been very little impact or restrictions upon detecting depsite intial fears?

Also do you have any figures on how many applications to detect on HLS artea have been made to date.

Great to see you here by the way...

www.detector-distribution.co.uk

For all your detecting needs.

[BAJR Host]

yes this is turning into a rather interesting thread. (not that it wasn't from the start... he adds quickly)



Another day another WSI…

[JBM]

I and my friends can visit about 150 farms give or take a few which change hands now and then.

This week the first mention of a single HLS field has come up on one of them.

We can give it a miss altogether and I and my friends would not go on it until we know more about why its has been graded HLS anyway.

This is why I would like to see a suitable onsite map which allows detectorists to operate on a self help basis.

Iam sure that a think tank somewhere must be taking this type of request on board?

Regards,Jerry.



Retired Aerospace manager after many years in the engineering industry..
Locating and preserving historical items for future generations to enjoy.

[BAJR Host]

I know just the person who could help.....


have a look at the online map at www.online-archaeology.co.uk

;)

Another day another WSI…

[JBM]

Thanks Peter,I will be having a look at your recommended site.Jerry.

Retired Aerospace manager after many years in the engineering industry..
Locating and preserving historical items for future generations to enjoy.

[BAJR Host]

I'll forgive you... but really I am David ;)

Another day another WSI…

[m300572]

Steve - I will check with my colleagues to se if they have had any queries re detecting. The only ones I know about have been from the Battlefields Trust for projects at Bosworth and Edgehill. We did have a near falling out with a 'community archaeology' excavation which didn't, as far as i know, involve metal detectors but couldn't grasp that, as we were paying a farmer not to damage a site, they couldn't just go on and excavate as they had in previous years.

[JBM]

Sorry David,

At my age I do get the odd senior moment.;):)Jerry.

Retired Aerospace manager after many years in the engineering industry..
Locating and preserving historical items for future generations to enjoy.

[JBM]

Hi David,

I read elseware that after four years existing ELS agreements will be reviewed.

If this is so will it mean any further retrictions to our detecting on the land that we have submitted finds through the PAS.

As you know some of us are giving definate proof of earlier occupations over a wide time span on the various land that we detect.

It would be a shame if we found that by contributing to the national data base we have restricted ourselves in future from carring out further detecting land where finds have been located and reported.

It would be useful for all detectorist to understand what is intended and not for any unfounded rumours to be remain circulation.

Regards,Jerry.

Retired Aerospace manager after many years in the engineering industry..
Locating and preserving historical items for future generations to enjoy.

[m300572]

Hi Jerry,

The discussion 'elsewhare' is cintinuing.

Entry Level Stewardship agreements run for 5 years - then reviewed and can go for another five and so on as long as the scheme lasts. For the majority of the County, the Farm Environment Record (FER) only has a selected dataset from the National Monument Record as a baseline for Historic Environment sites. So for most counties, most of the HER sites will not be on the FER. Around 70% 0f farmland is the target that defra has set for ELS schemes.

The Higher Level Stewardship Scheme has a lot more Historic Environment input as each application is accompanied by a Farm Environment Plan, which includes a consultation with the HER. This will idetify sites which are suitable for management under HLS options (so a single coin findspot is not likely to be included) but the HER will make recommendations on management of sites.

One of the options available is for the reversion of arable to permanent grassland over archaeological sites, or to adopt shallower ploughing methods. This means that sites which have been ploughed regularly can be protected from further plough damage but also that finds from these sites will tend to 'dry up' if they are detected over as the archaeology is not being destroyed to produce new finds in the ploughsoil.

There may also be cases where there are concentrations of finds which indicate a site which can be managed under the scheme (generally we assume that random find scatters are not manageable - open to debate but the line we have adopted at the moment). This would be likely to be reversion to grass. This would not necessarily preclude further metal detecting over these sites, but we would expect finds locations in more detail than would perhaps be the norm, if only to determine the extent of the site and therefore the area where we have to pay out large amounts of taxpayers money to protect. Each site would be considered on its merits by the Historic Environment Advisors at the Rural Development Service and the local County Archaeologist and PAS.

Regards

Peter
Historic Environment Advisor, RDS NW

[JBM]

Hi Peter,

Thanks for your detailed reply by "cintinuing" this thread.

I read the contents with interest as I have my own reasons for selecting either ploughed or pasture land given the choice.

I will keep my powder dry for the time being but as time passes Iam sure that much more will be heard on the subject.

Meanwhile it will be interesting to see how the debate continues elsewhere.

Regards,

Jerry.


Retired Aerospace manager after many years in the engineering industry..
Locating and preserving historical items for future generations to enjoy.