Stone Carvings

[Wibblehead]

During one of last years projects we came across a number of stone carvings in a fairly modern wall. Apparently they had come out of a tunnel leading to the church :face-huh:

hmm. Well, the property is literally across the road from the church, which has mediaeval origins, and was extensively remodelled in the Victorian era. The story goes that in the 1940s or there abouts, these carvings were taken out of the rubble that filled the tunnel, and built into the wall.







Any ideas on them would be appreciated. The face is in harder white sandstone, and the other two in red. One of the others looks like it may be a scroll, and the other looks like it may have some sort of vegetation on it. But i'll let you make your own mind up.

There are others but they are extremely badly weathered. I can post them if wanted.

Enjoy! :face-approve:

~~~~~
Thunder rolled. ... It rolled a six.

[historic building]

Afternoon

The face looks to be about the correct size to be a terminal or supporter for a hood-mould (the projecting strip around the top of an arch or window).

Not sure about the others so far. It is always difficult to see when things are set in a wall. If you have other convincing photos post them please. ( bit more interesting than my work at work today).

[Oxbeast]

Nice carvings, though to be quite honest I have doubts that they are real (other than the face). Its the story of the tunnel between the Medieval manor/abbey and the church. Almost every village seems to have a tunnel legend attached to it, usually with a mention of secret trysts between monks and nuns. Might this rubble filling a tunnel under a church just be backfill of a crypt?

I did once find some semi buried carvings behind a Victorian art school, including an eye which followed you around the site...

[BAJR Host]

I am quite convinced by them... they look like the remnant of the stones that once you rob out the good stuff (ie reusable) you have these left over... the top photo is probably a foliated terminal/headstop to a hood moulding as well. and I agree with historic building (well I better as he knows tons more than me!! B) ) about the second one .. though possible from a door? the photo below shows you what I mean... the bottom one... hmmmm still thinking!



Good idea........... try and find out when that wall is made.. then look at maps for churches in that area.... if there has been any renovation (adding an aisle etc...) these might be 'spare bits' removed from the church... nice little community project there! :face-approve:

"Gie's a Job.."
Prof. 'Dolly' Parton

[Wibblehead]

quote:Originally posted by historic building

Afternoon

The face looks to be about the correct size to be a terminal or supporter for a hood-mould (the projecting strip around the top of an arch or window).

Not sure about the others so far. It is always difficult to see when things are set in a wall. If you have other convincing photos post them please. ( bit more interesting than my work at work today).


One of our buildings chaps did suggest the idea of a terminal, but the other buildings chap thought it might be a Victorian era fake/romantic carving. Unfortunately it was so well set in the wall that you couldn't really tell anything else about it; like if it had once been attached to anything else.

I'm not convinced by the Victorian theory myself, but maybe that's because I kinda want it to be older. :)

The other photos I have are even less convincing than these, alas

[historic building]

Depending upon how much the victorians 'restored' the church you may be able to match up stone types with other datable architectural features still surviving within the building. You have three reasonably convincing stones there, all about the same size. As the stones are all roughly the same size you should possibly have a good look at the wall to see whether they have been cut to fit the wall. Do you know which stone is more likely to be the local stuff from around your area, from looking at the wall the fabric of the head looks more similar. Are you in coal country?

I had a fun tunnel story once. A 19th century cellar turned up in a town centre. This was reported by the local paper as a medieval tunnel running from the freemason's hall to the parish church. My interview was not included in the final article, I assume, as I slightly disagreed with these conclusions.

[Wibblehead]

quote:Originally posted by Oxbeast

Nice carvings, though to be quite honest I have doubts that they are real (other than the face). Its the story of the tunnel between the Medieval manor/abbey and the church. Almost every village seems to have a tunnel legend attached to it, usually with a mention of secret trysts between monks and nuns. Might this rubble filling a tunnel under a church just be backfill of a crypt?


I always raise an eyebrow when people mention tunnels, but in Nottinghamshire occasionally these tales prove to be based on fact. The outcrops of soft sandstone are like swiss cheese. Still, it would be a pretty serious affair to dig a tunnel through the sandstone this distance, and there's no record of anything like a manor house being on the site that the tunnel would go to.

The house is directly opposite the church though, so i like your crypt backfill suggestion. Ta!



quote:Originally posted by Oxbeast

I did once find some semi buried carvings behind a Victorian art school, including an eye which followed you around the site...


Creepy! *shudder*

~~~~~
Thunder rolled. ... It rolled a six.

[Wibblehead]

quote:Originally posted by BAJR Host

I am quite convinced by them... they look like the remnant of the stones that once you rob out the good stuff (ie reusable) you have these left over... the top photo is probably a foliated terminal/headstop to a hood moulding as well. and I agree with historic building (well I better as he knows tons more than me!! B) ) about the second one .. though possible from a door? the photo below shows you what I mean... the bottom one... hmmmm still thinking!


I think the problem with the two in the red sandstone is that they contain just enough texture to allow you to see things that might not actually be genuine. So I'm glad other people can see things too and it's not just my imagination running wild. :D I'm not ready to accept, yet, that the foliate 'feel' to the top one is coincidence.

I see what you mean on the picture.


quote:Originally posted by BAJR Host

Good idea........... try and find out when that wall is made.. then look at maps for churches in that area.... if there has been any renovation (adding an aisle etc...) these might be 'spare bits' removed from the church... nice little community project there! :face-approve:


The church is opposite. It was partially destroyed by fire in *coughs and mutters some mediaeval date*, but other than the Victorian remodelling I don't know what else has gone on.

We're hopefully revisiting the site this year :face-approve: and the lady who owns the garden is keen for us to go back and dig up more of her carefully manicured lawn. I think as part of the project I'll arrange to get in to the church and see if there are any clues inside.

[Oxbeast]

Ah, Nottinghamshire, right. So subterranean features are at least possible. I've had local old boys come over and describe tunnels to me in the fen edge, which linked up monasteries several kilometres apart. If you dug a 30cm deep feature, it started to fill with ground water. Must have been scuba monks...

[BAJR Host]

:0... knew there was a church nearby! knew it! Can't wait to hear more!

"Gie's a Job.."
Prof. 'Dolly' Parton

[Wibblehead]

quote:Originally posted by historic building

Depending upon how much the victorians 'restored' the church you may be able to match up stone types with other datable architectural features still surviving within the building. You have three reasonably convincing stones there, all about the same size. As the stones are all roughly the same size you should possibly have a good look at the wall to see whether they have been cut to fit the wall. Do you know which stone is more likely to be the local stuff from around your area, from looking at the wall the fabric of the head looks more similar. Are you in coal country?


Good plan. I've been round the outside of the church several times, and not found anything comparable, but then I think the outside is more recent. I've tried the door on numerous occasions but never found it unlocked. I'll have to arrange to get in to have a mooch around i think, like you suggest.

I believe the two stone types are Mansfield Red and Mansfield White. Both local stones, both quarried in the town. The town is Mansfield Woodhouse, by the way, don't think I mentioned.

I don't think they have been cut to put them into the wall. I rather suspect if the chap had found larger bits then he would have put them wholesale into the wall. They are all about the same size tho.


quote:Originally posted by historic building

I had a fun tunnel story once. A 19th century cellar turned up in a town centre. This was reported by the local paper as a medieval tunnel running from the freemason's hall to the parish church. My interview was not included in the final article, I assume, as I slightly disagreed with these conclusions.


:D yeah i think a lot of the tunnel stories originate with cellars. While we were working in Mansfield Woodhouse we got shown down into two or three cellars. One was a vast labyrinth, partially dug into the sandstone. The other had the feel of a tunnel, and was dug into the stone again; it was long and narrow, and the owner told us that one end was bricked up, and that it continued beyond. But the whole lot was plastered and whitewashed, so we couldn't really tell.

[Silent Bob]

Top bit does look like foliated carving, as said by Historic Building. I found a bit somewhat like it a while ago, but not as knackered. The head looks medieval to me, I'd say 13th/14th century. It's just the sort of rubble that people would keep if they found it whilst doing a spot digging. The 'remodelling' by the Victorians clearly followed the usual line of demolishing nearly everything and all that old stonework had to end up somewhere.